New Signature Items

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Dogfish44

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New Signature Items
Keep it on topic or you will have your posts deleted, and be prone to infractions

As was voted upon by the council, additional signature items are being implemented for unique evolution methods previously unlisted - from Gender Based evolutions, to stat comparisons, to literally turning the 3DS upside down. Rather than a complete free-for-all, the mod team decided to build a set of base items to work with. Note that names are not locked.

Moth Dust: Increase the holder's SPA by two (2) ranks. Combinations involving Gust and a move which doubles the BAP of the combo (e.g. Silver Wind) do not incur Cooldown, instead incurring Sluggish.
Affects: Mothim

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Plant Cloak: Increase SpA and SpD ranks by 1. Boost the BAP of Grass-Typed moves by 2. Boost BAP reduction of Anticipation and Overcoat by 1.
Affects: Wormadam, Burmy
Sandy Cloak: Increase Atk and Def ranks by 1. Boost the BAP of Ground-Typed moves by 2. Boost BAP reduction of Anticipation and Overcoat by 1.
Affects: Wormadam-S, Burmy
Trash Cloak: Increase Def and SpD ranks by 1. Boost BAP of Steel-Typed moves by 2 and of Gyro Ball by an extra 1. Boost BAP reduction of Anticipation and Overcoat by 1.
Affects: Wormadam-T, Burmy

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Boxing Gloves: Increase Defense rank by 1. Iron Fist gives an extra 2bap boost per hit to the moves affected by it. Boosts the bap of fighting moves by 1. Confers Iron Fist if holder doesn't get it naturally.
Affects: Tyrogue, Hitmonchan

Kicking Gear: Increase Attack Rank by 1. Reckless gives an extra 2bap boost to the moves affected by it. Boosts the bap of fighting moves by 1. Confers Reckless if holder doesn't get it naturally.
Affects: Tyrogue, Hitmonlee

Spinning Top: Increases Attack and Defense by 1. Technician gives an extra 2bap boost per hit to the moves affected by it. Boosts the bap of fighting moves by 1. Confers Technician if holder doesn't get it naturally.
Affects: Tyrogue, Hitmontop


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solar Ray: The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to the negative effects (ex. loss of ability, evasion drop, perish counter) of all Status category moves not initiated by the user or an ally (ex. Skill Swap, Gravity, Perish Song). Morning Sun will always heal for its highest possible HP value. Triggers Justified and Steadfast once upon sendout. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each.
Affects: Eevee, Espeon, Riolu, and Lucario

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Relic Crown: Boosts the BAP of Ancient Power by 3 and of Rock Slide by 1. Boosts SpD rank by 1. Increases STAB bonus by 1.
Affects: Mamoswine, Piloswine, Yanma, Yanmega, Tangela, Tangrowth

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Casteliacone Deluxe: Boosts the BAP of Rollout by 3. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. Increases STAB bonus by 1. Boosts the BAP of Super Effective attacks by 1.
Affects: Lickitung, Lickilicky.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Duel Gloves: Boosts the BAP of Double Hit by 2 per hit. Increases STAB bonus by 1. Multiply the holder's speed by 1.15. Flinch on Fling.
Affects: Aipom, Ambipom.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Empty Shell: Increases the Pokémon's Attack by two (2) Ranks. Increases the BAP of Bug-type and Ghost-type attacks one (1). Confers Run Away and Filter to the holder if it does not have the abilities.
Affects: Shedinja

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Inversion Charm: Raises the Base Attack Power of moves containing the words "Cut", "Cross", "Claw", "Scissor", "Scratch", "Swipe", or "Slash" is increased by three (3). Confers the ability Simple to the holder. Increases the holder's Attack Rank by one (1).
Affects: Inkay, Malamar

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Royal Honey: Increases the DEF and SPD Ranks of the equipped by one (1). "Order" moves cost two (2) less EN to use and have their priority increased by 1.
Affects: Combee, Vespiqueen.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Rain Brooch: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Hydration activated, regardless of weather. Increases the power of "Whip" and "Tail" moves by 3, and their accuracy by 10.
Affects: Sligoo, Goodra.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dark Band: Increases Atk Rank by 1. Boosts Iron Fist by 1 BAP. Boosts Dark-Typed damaging moves by 1 BAP.
Affects: Pangoro, Pancham


These are not set in stone. We're looking for comments as to if there are any immediate balance problems the community can see, or if any Pokémon is underboosted. Note that this also includes an update to Solar Ray (Friendship Evolution + Daytime), and a few changes from previously posted ideas. Naturally all iterations will be voted through the council. So, fire away!
 
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Geodude6

Look at my shiny CT!
Trash cloak is inferior to rare candy because it gives -2.5 bap on incoming neutral attacks whereas RC gives -3. On fire moves RC gives only .5 bap less which is not really that big of a boost. Would be nice if trash cloak increased both defenses by 2 since that's what RC does (as opposed to the other two forms which get a boost to only one stat from RC).

On Casteliacone Deluxe you could just say that it gives +1 Def and SpD since that's what it does to both Lickitung and Lickilicky.

What is Fling's BAP with Duel Gloves?

I would like to see Royal Honey maybe confer Filter to help Vespiquen be more defensive.

Rain Brooch Goodra is unable to use Rest.

I would like to see Dark Band give a BAP boost to Fighting moves as well as Dark moves.


These are what I take issue with; the rest are fine IMO.
 
Balance-wise, spinning top seems arbitrarily better than its counterparts, giving 2 stat ranks rather than one in addition to the other identical changes

I can see the flavor and the RC basis tho.


Edit: i agree with leethoof @ below because yeah its a great point and who doesnt want the weaker mons used more for diversity?
Or let me rephrase: who doesn't want skillfrog used less on average since it's unlikely to get debuffed and more mons that are good means more people using those mons?
 
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Hey, this is applicable to the other sig item thread as well, but I thought I'd post it here instead for no particular reason. Frankly, we are being far too conservative with our sig items here and the sig item changes in the other thread.

A lot of these Pokemon, especially in this thread, are just absolutely horrible. Even with these sig items, the half-dozen people in the world whos favorite Pokemon are yanmega, wigglytuff, and shedinja and who are deadset on using those pokemon every single game will be massively handicapped against opponents of equal skill who use generally strong Pokemon like Cyclohm, Mimers, Greninja, Pyroak etc. Its just how this game works - there are stronkmons, and then there are pokemon that lose to the stronkmons. There are only two tiers, not our convoluted ASB viability rankings. The power levels among the losers is completely irrelevant, because bar overwhelming typing advantage, they will lose to a stronkmon, and usage of stronkmons in real matches is (justifiably) way higher. I'm aware we all have our successes with hipstermons who, by either game the system and "abuse" ability/item combos or through excellent play, are able to beat these stronkmons. These aren't even isolated cases, but they most certainly are not the norm. This entire paragraph is pretty much common knowledge, but I felt I needed to state it explicitly anyways.

Now, in the creation of these sig items, we have an opportunity to narrow the gap between stronkmons and the losermons, and to be fair, we have been doing a really good job at that. These items do make these Pokemon stronger. But, why do we have to narrow the gap? Why can't we just eliminate the gap as best as we can? Why does there have to be an unspoken rule that Expert Belt Aurumoth /must/ always be stronger than these Pokemon? When we are making these sig items to buff various Pokemon, we are already artificially changing the balance of the game. There's no reason for us to arbitrarily decide that these Pokemon still have to be weaker than our precious stronkmons. Sure, movepool, typing, and abilites are completely out of our hand, but we've been playing with stats and other numbers since the first batch of sig items was created by Deck (and according to shedinja's item, we are playing with abilities now as well). Currently, all of our hard work in making these sig items is going to be for naught when nobody will even use any of these Pokemon anyways. In addition, its tough to figure out where and what the buffs are supposed to be unless you actually use the Pokemon already regularly. This is kind of hard for Pokemon that nobody even uses like Lickylicky or Mothim, but for other more common ones, we really do need to listen to the users. They are the ones most greatly affected by the change, and thus should have the greatest say.

These items needs to be bloated piles of overpoweredness if they are ever going to be used in real matches, because the current stronkmons of ASB are all bloated piles of overpoweredness. Especially with the ubiquity of Knock Off and other item removal, these items had better be really damn good to compare to even an itemless Bronzong, let alone one with Rare Candy. Finally, this isn't power creep. Power creep is when something new is introduced that is stronger than all of the current options, like Aurumoth, Greninja, and Mega-mons. This is simply bringing everybody else in line with the top level of strength as closely as possible, which brings us ever closer to true balance.

tldr make sig items op
 
tldr make sig items op
Idk if Knock Off will become OP after that though :p
Moth Dust: Fine, but a little more buff won't hurt. Removing cool down for sluggishness seems a bit of an anomaly and could result in weird scenarios that would give headache to mods. Would rather prefer an immunity during cool down, like Vice Grip does.

Plant Cloak: + Sandy Cloak: + Trash Cloak: Fine. Wouldn't prefer Wormadam over Leavanny. Wormadam-S is cool, and 50/50 between Forretress and Wormadam-T.

Boxing Gloves: + Kicking Gear: + Spinning Top: Fine. Birkal may be able to comment better on this.

Solar Ray: Cool! So Lucario wouldn't get Soothe Bell as a sig item anymore I suppose?

Relic Crown: Fine. Single STAB means +2 and Dual STAB means +1 each, seems like something that wouldn't hurt to add.

Casteliacone Deluxe: No Clue, seems fine.

Duel Gloves: A little too OP I think. Especially the flinch on Fling part (Considering pick up).
My ideas would probably be :
(a) Isn't considered an item for Acrobatics and Knock Off, etc. or
(b) Cannot be knocked off and all attacks that don't have a flinch chance have 30% chance to flinch. or
(c) anything other than Fling + Pick Up = Ambipom flinches any slow ghosts and psychics that don't have a viable means to beat the flinches.

Empty Shell: Cool!

Inversion Charm: Cool!

Royal Honey: Agree with Geodude on adding in Filter. Wouldn't hurt a 4x Rock weak mon to have it >.<

Rain Brooch: Fine. Rest inflicted sleep is not affected by Hydration is understood, but could be explicit for OCD folks. Goodra wouldn't mind a +10 Accuracy to all attacks instead of limiting to 'Whip' and 'Tail' moves. Probably gets 20% Accuracy to all attacks during Rain? Or something similar.

Dark Band: Doesn't seem like a lot different from what Rare Candy does right now. Probably wouldn't hurt to have an accuracy boost? Idk.
 
I still really don't like the flinch on Fling effect of Duel Gloves. Both of the items in-game that flinch on fling, Razor Claw and King's Rock, also add a flinch chance to make any move flinch. If Ambipom wants to abuse infinite flinching, it should just use King's Rock and be done with it. Without the flinch effect, Duel Gloves is still roughly as strong as Rare Candy, so why is it needed?
 

ZhengTann

Nargacuga
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I still really don't like the flinch on Fling effect of Duel Gloves. Both of the items in-game that flinch on fling, Razor Claw and King's Rock, also add a flinch chance to make any move flinch. If Ambipom wants to abuse infinite flinching, it should just use King's Rock and be done with it. Without the flinch effect, Duel Gloves is still roughly as strong as Rare Candy, so why is it needed?
Maybe replace the flinch effect with one that allows Aipom / Ambipom to hold one extra Berry? Only Berries though! Just to keep in-line with the anime/dex lore about "shucking nuts" while giving Ambipom a versatile defense boost (think +HP Berries and +Stat Berries).
 
Hey, this is applicable to the other sig item thread as well, but I thought I'd post it here instead for no particular reason. Frankly, we are being far too conservative with our sig items here and the sig item changes in the other thread.

A lot of these Pokemon, especially in this thread, are just absolutely horrible. Even with these sig items, the half-dozen people in the world whos favorite Pokemon are yanmega, wigglytuff, and shedinja and who are deadset on using those pokemon every single game will be massively handicapped against opponents of equal skill who use generally strong Pokemon like Cyclohm, Mimers, Greninja, Pyroak etc. Its just how this game works - there are stronkmons, and then there are pokemon that lose to the stronkmons. There are only two tiers, not our convoluted ASB viability rankings. The power levels among the losers is completely irrelevant, because bar overwhelming typing advantage, they will lose to a stronkmon, and usage of stronkmons in real matches is (justifiably) way higher. I'm aware we all have our successes with hipstermons who, by either game the system and "abuse" ability/item combos or through excellent play, are able to beat these stronkmons. These aren't even isolated cases, but they most certainly are not the norm. This entire paragraph is pretty much common knowledge, but I felt I needed to state it explicitly anyways.

Now, in the creation of these sig items, we have an opportunity to narrow the gap between stronkmons and the losermons, and to be fair, we have been doing a really good job at that. These items do make these Pokemon stronger. But, why do we have to narrow the gap? Why can't we just eliminate the gap as best as we can? Why does there have to be an unspoken rule that Expert Belt Aurumoth /must/ always be stronger than these Pokemon? When we are making these sig items to buff various Pokemon, we are already artificially changing the balance of the game. There's no reason for us to arbitrarily decide that these Pokemon still have to be weaker than our precious stronkmons. Sure, movepool, typing, and abilites are completely out of our hand, but we've been playing with stats and other numbers since the first batch of sig items was created by Deck (and according to shedinja's item, we are playing with abilities now as well). Currently, all of our hard work in making these sig items is going to be for naught when nobody will even use any of these Pokemon anyways. In addition, its tough to figure out where and what the buffs are supposed to be unless you actually use the Pokemon already regularly. This is kind of hard for Pokemon that nobody even uses like Lickylicky or Mothim, but for other more common ones, we really do need to listen to the users. They are the ones most greatly affected by the change, and thus should have the greatest say.

These items needs to be bloated piles of overpoweredness if they are ever going to be used in real matches, because the current stronkmons of ASB are all bloated piles of overpoweredness. Especially with the ubiquity of Knock Off and other item removal, these items had better be really damn good to compare to even an itemless Bronzong, let alone one with Rare Candy. Finally, this isn't power creep. Power creep is when something new is introduced that is stronger than all of the current options, like Aurumoth, Greninja, and Mega-mons. This is simply bringing everybody else in line with the top level of strength as closely as possible, which brings us ever closer to true balance.

tldr make sig items op
While I do agree with the basic sentiment here (that the proposed sig items are bordering on useless), I think we have to be careful about what we're trying to achieve. The fact is, in any game with as many variables as Pokemon, there are always going to be Pokemon that are better than others. I feel we'd be opening a can of worms if we tried to completely eliminate the gap, because where does that leave the Rare Candy and Everstone Pokemon who are bad? We could buff those to the same level, but then we risk, in our attempt at buffing Raticate, making Cyclohm an even bigger problem, just to give an example.

Another huge problem I see with trying to eliminate the gap is that I fear it will make the metagame focused entirely on item removal. There is a reason I made my gym arena laugh at knock off attempts, because there's very little opportunity cost in using a 10 BP Dark move to make your opponent that much weaker. If we buff these items to the level you're suggesting, the motivation to put Knock Off and co on all available Pokemon skyrockets, to the point I'd argue they become the new "broken Pokemon." And that's before you consider that beginning players would be especially disadvantaged with having to grind the CC for all these items to make their Pokemon at all viable.

My belief on the matter is that if you want to balance the metagame, you've gotta look at why the top tier threats are dominating everything else, and nerf as necessary (I'd look at Protean for starters, but that's just my opinion).

Aside from that, the items themselves I think are going in the right direction, but I feel they could be a little stronger. I still have no reason to use Lickilicky over, say, Porygon2 with Eviolite. +1 Normal STAB, +1 Expert Belt, +1 Defenses are okay, but it does not really do what we're dealing making this thread for in the first place, buff some underrated Pokemon so they're not completely useless. I do not have any specific advice because I'm admittedly rather biased here, but some buffs on a few of these might be kinda nice.
 

Frosty

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small power boosts might happen (and if you look at it 90% of the sig items end up being slightly better than RC), but we won't do more than that. Reasoning: most mons are affected by rare candy and everstone, so whatever boost to crappy mons via sig items will only reach very few. being evolved through special means shouldn't become an inherent advantage.

Also, rare candy does boost crappy mons (aka mons with 17 or less BRT) and that is happening here too. So I don't get your point. 17 BRT is an arbitrary parameter? Yes it is. But it is the parameter we use. It is impossible to boost all crappy mons on a case-by-case basis (or else rare candy's entry would be an entire tab of the sheet) and boosting only very few of them (aka the ones with special evolution methods) will result in ridiculous coherency issues. So basically: we do boost crappy mons, defined as those with 17 or less BRT. More than that will result in many issues that I'd better not mess with.
 
RE: Maxim
Of course some Pokemon will always be better than others. But, I'd much rather have Pokemon be situationally better than other Pokemon, making neutral matchups more even across the board. About knock off, a possible effect for some particularly necessary sig items could be immunity to knock off, or some variant thereof. If Knock Off becomes even more of a problem, then we can look at that later.

RE: Forsty
It doesn't matter that 90% of the sig items end up being slightly better than RC, when 90% of the mons+sig items are still worse than a real pokemon+RC. With regards to all the bad Pokemon that evolve by level-up or are single stage, these special-evo sig items are already pretty arbitrary, so why not make more random sig items to uniquely buff Raticate, Corsola, and friends? As shown by this thread, there is inarguably precedent of adding specific sig items to Pokemon that already benefit from a different one. Cost will likely be a problem, so we can just lower the cost of sig items anyways.
 
I think it's cool to try to buff badmons to levels where they can compete with decent ASB mons, but I think we really need to consider the effects of making a Pokemon viable entirely through its item might have on battling with or against that Pokemon. Obviously this has the potential to heavily centralize the metagame around Knock Off and other item-disabling moves, which I think we need to avoid at all costs; it would be terrible to centralize the metagame around having a few certain moves, and drastically reduce the viability of Pokemon that lack those moves. An option to avoid this is to make these signature items immune to Knock Off and such, but that also has problems. If these items couldn't be disabled in any way, I feel like it's a very artifical buff to these Pokemon, and if that buff can't be mitigated it feels like a bit of a cop out that sort of limits options for creativity in ASB. A possible solution would be to give items both a permanent effect and a removeable effect; for instance, an item that confers both a stat boost and extra ability might keep the ability when Knocked Off, but remove the stat boosts. I'm obviously open to all kinds of solutions, but I think we need to be careful about centralizing ASB around items and what effects that might have.
 

Frosty

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is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I won't even bother to try to balance 721 pokemon (or the ~350 FE pokemon). Nor will I endorse the creation of an item-centered metagame. Some pokemon are good and some aren't. We can and have closed that distance with the current Rare Candy and other sig items, but attempting to null it is all in all a silly endeavor doomed to fail. And that requires ridiculous ammounts of work for a dubious end result.

If you want to do that, try to convince the other mods (I was against creating those sig items in the first place for what it is worth). In another thread. As far as I am concerned, the current RC is our parameter through and though for the items, regardless if the affected pokemon is one blessed or cursed. Trying to balance 721 (or 350) combinations of mon+held pokemon is insane. For reference we, in 4 years of existence, created around 60 sig items. This thread has 16 items (that would need to be redone if you want them to match the power of your everyday good mon + RC) for a total of 76. What you guys are asking is to triple that number, making sure that all mons are viable. I can't possibly put into words how much work that is. Not only a matter of creating ~150 items or so, but also making sure that every item boosts each specific pokemon enough to reach our parameter X. Also defining the parameter is hard. Also Also, the sheer amount of playtest we would need to make sure the results are balanced. Everything about this is humongous. Way bigger and harder than you guys can imagine. Trust me on this. I was in charge of balancing a Custom Game with 50~ character with rather simpler individual mechanics and we took a couple years to reach an unconclusive results. Balancing 350 mons with their movepools and item interactions and ability interactions and arenas und so weiter is....much more.

I can't stress this enough. I don't care if I end up being the bad guy in this parade, but as far as I am concerned that ain't gonna happen. Further talk about mon equality in this thread will be deleted on grounds of thread derailing. I don't mind you saying item X or Y in the OP is weak compared to Rare Candy (like geodude did). I don't even mind you giving suggestions of different effects that may fit the mons better than the ones we've put. But talk about mons not in the OP will be deleted.


As for changing sig items to give a permanent knock-off free effect. It is a possibility. If it is concluded that Knock Off is too centralizing (and it kinda is, but warrants discussion), it is a possible change. But that would affect all items, included the ones being changed in the other thread. So it is best to discuss that in the feedback thread. Also because it would mean that all the work done so far in the past week would go down the hill. Which isn't something I really like.
 
Personally, I think Knock Off should be it's own discussion a little later.

On the topic of items, I'll go over them 1 by 1.

  • Moth Dust: Seems fine, quite neat in fact. Only thing I'm not sure about is why there isn't a +1 to both STABs?
  • Wormadam Cloaks: Fine as is, gives them a decent buff.
  • Hitmon-Gear: Hitmontop's seems a tiny bit better than the other two, and Hitmonlee's item seems a bit precarious, given it's Reckless which boosts recoil moves. I forget if it buffs High Jump Kick though.
  • Solar Ray: Get rid of the Morning Sun boost imo. We just got rid of it on the Moon Stone, so why are we pretty much reintroducing it here?
  • Relic Crown: Seems great to me.
  • Casteliacone Deluxe: ...This is literally the one I have the most problems with. Rollout is just horrible in ASB because of how easy it is to break or punish the "chain". Even then it really is not that powerful, and Rare Candy would be better on it for the extra STAB. I'd just go ahead and get rid of this and boost the STAB and/or EB bonuses. If we need to have a Rollout effect, just make it so it never decays or decays every 2 actions. Of course, there's the chance I might be biased but this still seems more like a nerf than a buff.
  • Duel Gloves: The Double hit bonus is nice, but the speed increase and the Fling increase seem a bit arbitrary. Not terribly sure what would go in it's place though. Possibly just ditch both of those and go for +2 STAB and +1 Attack?
  • Empty Shell: Fine as is.
  • Inversion Charm: Fine as is.
  • Royal Honey: I'm a tad wary about the increase in priority, but Vespiquen isn't exactly a top tier threat so I believe it's fine.
  • Rain Brooch: Um...this is quite clearly worse than Rare Candy, as it doesn't boost any stats whatsoever. Just add +1 SpA and this will be fine.
  • Dark Band: Fine as is. Possibly add +1 to Fighting STAB to mimic Rare Candy?
Just my three cents on the matter.
 
I would think Hitmon Lee/Punch should get more of a boost to be on par with Top, because despite RC being better on top, that's not necessary a reason to limit these items to making top better.
Perhaps +3 on the abilities for Lee/Punch instead of +2?

Reckless does boost HJK, so meh on that point.
 
I decided to post my opinions on Relic Crown in particular, so saving this post to edit in my stuff (I dont want the discussion to advance and be approved without me saying my piece ~_~)

Alright, here we go.

Relic Crown: Boosts the BAP of Ancient Power by 3 and of Rock Slide by 1. Boosts SpD rank by 1. Increases STAB bonus by 1.
Affects: Mamoswine, Piloswine, Yanma, Yanmega, Tangela, Tangrowth

Above is the Proposed Relic Crown Item. While it is a step in the right direction, I think we can adjust the effects so that it affects all target pokemon in a more equal way.

The most Popular Mamoswine natures are Jolly (+Speed -Spa) and Adamant (+Atk -Spa), and this brings Mamo down to r2 Special Attack. While I agree with the all around Special Defense rank buff (all pokemon have r2 and its a problem for them), The Ancient Power boost is not as promising as one would hope. The current RC does give +1bap to Rock Slide as well which is nice I guess, but it feels like a lackluster attempt to even things out. Mixed Mamowine would run this Current RC fairly okay... But the problem lies that any +spa nature on Mamoswine is pretty undesirable. [Modest evens the Offenses at 4/4, -Def leaves Mamoswine at 2/3 which is basically normal mamoswine swapped, -Spd would be nullifying the RC Spd buff, so 3/2 like normal mamoswine, and then -Spe on a 80 speed tier mon is not popular in the slightest].

I propose a RC that YAS/DF44 and myself discussed before Sig Item discussion came into serious scrutiny (Pretty sure we were the ones that started this whole revamping whoopsies)

Relic Crown: Gives the user STAB on Rock moves. Decreases incoming Special attacks by 2BAP in Sandstorms and is Immune to Sandstorm. The user's SPD rank is increased by one.
Affects: Mamoswine, Piloswine, Yanma, Yanmega, Tangela, Tangrowth

This version encompasses a BAP boost to all rock moves to accommodate for the diverse pokemon (Yanmega runs solely on special moves, Mamoswine in most cases runs solely on physical moves, and Tangrowth is blessed with natural 4/4 offenses). The Spd boost is still there, and all the pokemon greatly appreciate it (Frosty and Mowtom are the only active Tang users if i'm correct, and they both are running sassy to patch it up). The last part of the boost is important I think, because it makes this Sig item different. The Current Relic Crown is basically a watered down Rare Candy, and I personally would probably use Ebelt/Rare Candy/Hard Stone for Mamoswine over this (I'm not a tang or yan user, so I can't speak on that behalf). If we give the Relic Crown the sandstorm perk, suddenly Tangrowth and Yanmega find cool niches in ASB (granted there arent many weather teams or gimmick squads, but the niche could still be used and taken advantage of). Mamoswine is already immune to Sandstorm, but it gets what all 3 pokemon families would love to have: -2BAP to special attacks. I think Relic Crown just needs a bit more oomph, and this version works nicely.

[I decided against just saying The pokemon get all the rock STAB perks because that might perk Mamoswine in particular too much (Light Screen/Reflect/Amnesia/Defense Curl) compared to Tangrowth getting only Reflect/Amnesia and Yanmega not recieving any boosts from the perk]. If my RC proposition isn't satisfactory, perhaps we can boost the current RC idea to +2 Rank to Spd?
 
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Frosty

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the problem with giving just STAB and ending there is that Yanmega will get a very shitty boost out of it. +SpD and more bap on Ancient Power, which I don't think it uses?

Back to it later.


ANYWAY

Lemme try to sum concerns so far

  • Moth Dust: mechanics may cause trouble (gale)
  • Plant Cloak: ok
  • Sandy Cloak: ok
  • Trash Cloak: not powerful enough (geodude6)
  • Boxing Gloves: Worse than Spinning Top (Fort)
  • Kicking Gear: Worse than Spinning Top (Fort)
  • Spinning Top: Better than the others (Fort)
  • Solar Ray: Remove full Morning Sun (Maxim)
  • Relic Crown: weaksauceish (glacier and others)
  • Casteliacone Deluxe: Lickilicky is still outclassed (Maxim and other people)
  • Duel Gloves: No Flinch on Fling pls (oh-so-many people), extra speed is weird (Maxim)
  • Empty Shell: ok
  • Inversion Charm: ok
  • Royal Honey: Give Filter (geodude6 and others)
  • Rain Brooch: Weaksauce (Maxim and others)
  • Dark Band: Boost fighting moves (geodude6 and others), Too similar to RC (Gale)

I will give people more 48h to point out their problems with items. In the end the items marked "ok" will be separated and will be implemented as is (together with the others tho). As for the others, we will go through them one by one to solve the problems people have with them. Important: I listed the problems that were pointed out, not the ones I agree with. I just want to start discussion on each item at a time so we don't get overloaded with 029023570239503297502397 different discussions on different items at the same time.
 

Geodude6

Look at my shiny CT!
Trash Cloak: Make it boost defenses by 2 ranks each and it will be good imo.

Hitmon items: I feel like it's OK for Spinning Top to be better than the others because Hitmontop gets a 2 rank boost from Rare Candy whereas the others get a 1 rank boost (this is similar to my opinion on the cloak items)

WRT Relic Crown maybe we could use Glacier's version but add on a buff to one of Yanmega's abilities (maybe make Tinted Lens boost by 2 BAP moves already boosted by it, or make Speed Boost raise by 2 stages a la Blazikenite, or make Speed Boost not cost energy?)

Might edit in other stuff later.
 
i don't see a problem with flinch on fling flavor-wise, razor fang doesn't have a flinch effect in ASB even though it does ingame and yet it still flinches on fling here , but balance-wise what deadfox says below

i agree with geo on spinning top, trash cloak is already better than RC and doesn't need to be buffed further

how is it complicated for a combo to cause sluggishness >_<

rain brooch: just add +1 SpA

dark band: idk but i don't like it as-is at all, what gale said basically

royal honey: yes add filter

relic crown: glacier's proposal

casteliacone deluxe: rollout boost isn't actually really a thing it cares about, add something weird and minor maybe but RC -1 BAP STAB + semi-EB isn't bad at all

all the ones that you said ok for are fine
 
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I'll just pick out a few here:

I think the Hitmon items are a little off balance too. Boxing Gloves are about right. Defence is a nice stat to boost since it lets Chan run adamant for 5/4/1/4 while still maintaining that Rank 5 attack if it goes for another item, and it gets a nice amount of moves to use the Iron Fist boost. Hitmonlee on the other hand really suffers from a lack of good moves to benefit from Reckless, basically just HJK. Spinning top I'm pretty eh on. I can handle the two stat increases but I'm not sure on boosting Technician. It ends up with some pretty drastic changes in move BAP, things like BAP 11 Bulldoze/Aerial Ace/Hidden Power and lots of BAP 8 priority. Just something to think about.

Relic Crown and Casteliacone just both seem pretty bad. I understand the flavour of boosting the evolution moves, but the problem is those moves are just bad.

Anyone who can argue that giving Ambipom (who is a pretty good mon to begin with) access to a constand Fake Out is stilly. I'd like to see the item give an Attack rank boost to allow Ambipom to run Jolly more. I'm okay with a fling effect but not flinch.

Royal Honey/Rain Brooch are both pretty bad. Honey is not so much a bad item but its just dealing with a really bad mon. Rain Brooch could honestly be reworked entirely.

I'd also probably have to echo comments than Pangoro's item isn't bad at all, but is a little vanilla. I'd have no real issues if it were left the way it is though.

The ones marked OK by Frosty are pretty universally agreed upon at being okay, myself included.
 

Frosty

=_=
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I think people are forgetting that Rare Candy is our parameter;

You are comparing an item with:

+1 stat
+1 stab if more than one or +2 if one.

Why am I saying that? well

1) Relic Crown gives to every pokemon (aside from tangrowth) the exact same thing as Rare Candy (+1 stat, in this case SpD, which is a needed stat for all and +1 STABs). Tangrowth gets the boost from both ancient power and rock slide and can use the coverage so it benefits more from it than (arguably) from the extra bap on grass. So please explain to me: how can an item that is RC + random rock shit weaker than RC without the bous rock shit?

2) RC would give Lickilicky +1def/spd and +2bap for normal moves. CCD gives +1def/spd, +1BAP for normal moves and +1bap for SE moves, which is arguably more useful than even more normal firepower, as Lickilicky's movepool is humongous. How can it be worse than RC?


Don't get me wrong. If you want to argue that they are uncreative, too similar to RC and that a completely different approach would do better, then I can discuss that. Heck, me and df44 did most of those and the others in a go or two, so you can't expect much criativity on everything, seriously. So I'd would be more than happy to accept suggestions (hint: if you say "X is wrong" and don't give a suggestion, sorry but I will completely disregard what you said and I will go with what I have actually suggested somewhere, even if it isn't the best thing ever, simply because it is the best thing actually suggested).

But if your argument is that sig item is "weak" (instead of "could be done in another way" or of "it is weaker than item XXX that is also being suggested") without it actually being worse thn rare candy (hint: show it), then it means you don't have in mind our parameter, which means that I can't really take your opinion seriously, sorry.
 

Geodude6

Look at my shiny CT!
I'm going to reiterate that I want Trash Cloak to boost both defenses by 2 because that's what Rare Candy does (as opposed to the other two which get a boost to only 1 stat from RC)

Also, this is slightly off-topic but should Tyrantrum and Aurorus be affected by Solar and Lunar Ray respectively? They evolve by being leveled up during the day/night respectively.
 
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