CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 5 - Stat Limits

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jas61292

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This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is HeaLnDeaL, so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. HeaLnDeaL will be deciding the stat limits for CAP 20 at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.

These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 20. We will look at limits to CAP 20's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.

This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, I strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.

Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)
The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.
Physical Sweepiness (PS)
The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.
Special Tankiness (ST)
The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.
Special Sweepiness (SS)
The rating of the Pokémon's special offense​

A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found here. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice is free.

If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then I suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!

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CAP20 so far:


Leadership Team:
nyttyn - Topic Leader
Ununhexium - Typing Leader
trc - Abilities Leader
HeaLnDeaL - Stats Leader
Snobalt - Movepool Leader​

Concept:
Name: Use the Boost to Get Through!

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

Justification: In the early days of Pokemon X and Y, we experienced the first Pokemon that could (viably) boost and sweep from either the physical or special side: Mega Lucario. While it was clear his unpredictability could have a devastating effect (having your Chansey eat a Close Combat, Will-O-Wisping on the Nasty Plot, etc.) the true extent to which this could make a Pokemon better was masked by the fact that Lucario's sets were both already amazing. The purpose of this concept would therefore be to explore the impact of unpredictability in sweepers by creating a Pokemon that can run several boosting sets, none of which are dominant in their own right, but that when combined can result in an extremely dangerous threat.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • Is there a limit to how much unpredictability can make a Pokemon better? Can it make a decent Pokemon great? Or can it only make them usable?
  • How does being unpredictable with boosting options compare to other forms of unpredictability (such as uncommon coverage moves or trying to speed creep certain threats)? Is unpredictability in sweepers inherently more dangerous because of how easily they can win a game?
  • For a Pokemon that is already unpredictable, will we see the use of strange coverage moves (as many sweepers tend to run) or will it tend to stick to standard sets because it already has the element of surprise?
  • Which boosting moves are distinct enough to completely change a Pokemon's checks/counters? Are Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Agility the only ones that can fit this concept? Or is there a way to incorporate moves such as Dragon Dance without giving the Pokemon "the best of both worlds".
  • How effective will double boosting sets be on this Pokemon? Will the ability to "pick your counters" on a Pokemon already designed to bypass its counters be too good? Or can it be designed so that the loss of coverage will still leave it with several checks and counters on any set?
  • To what extent will teams have to prepare for this Pokemon? Will they have to pack several checks/counters like for M-Lucario? Or will they be able to just use a standard team so long as they can identify the set early?
Type: Water / Steel
Abilities: Water Veil
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Welcome to Stat Limits. This is traditionally one of the more technical threads of the process. In order to help alleviate the burden of classifying how good a certain stat combination is at a particular task, CAP utilizes a very handy spreadsheet calculator that almost anyone can use (found above). In this stage, we are NOT suggesting concrete stats. Rather, we are determining how good the CAP should be when it comes to Physical Sweepiness, Special Sweepiness, Physical Tankiness, and Special Tankiness. The actual formulas that are used to determine these ratings might be complex, but thanks to some very helpful CAP veterans, almost any CAPper can use the spread sheet to plug in Base Stats and see the respective rating for one of the four categories, and for the base stat total rating that in turn takes all four categories into account. srk1214 said it quite well a few projects back:

srk1214 said:
In other words, this thread is NOT where we decide anything about the actual stats CAP 18 will have. We merely set boundaries to guide our submissions in the next thread about how we should be oriented offensively/defensively and physically/specially.

Even better, we don't just say "as specially bulky as Goodra" or "as physically offensive as Mega Pinsir." We have a system and a calculation! We use Base Stat Rating (BSR) which is further composed of PS, SS, PT, and ST, which stand for Physical Sweepiness, Special Sweepiness, Physical Tankiness, and Special Tankiness, respectively. The calculator for these are found in the post above mine and should be your guide in making any arguments. There's no need to look up the formulas and do it out by hand.
Note, however, that equal base stats do not translate to exactly equal Base Stat Ratings. For example, a 100 HP / 100 Defense / 100 Special Defense spread will have very slightly different Physical Tankiness and Special Tankiness ratings. This is because the formula that the spreadsheet operates under takes into account the traits (stats, etc) of the various Pokemon in the metagame, and there isn't a perfect one-for-one match between the stats that are best determined to tank special/physical hits due to the differences between physical/special attackers. In short, if you type in equal defenses or even even equal attacking stats, do not be alarmed if your PT/ST or PS/SS ratings are slightly different; this is to be expected.

With that all said, let's move onto the points the specific to this CAP.

nyttyn's threat list said:
Universal threats to CAP20
Thundurus-I (DD will 75% of the time kill it at +1 but its sweep will be crippled in the process)
Raikou (DD might be able to win at +1 after rocks)
Magnezone
Garchomp
Hippowdon (CM might be able to avoid 2HKO, bulk dependent)
Landorus-T (DD should be able to outspeed after +1 speed (+0 atk after intimidate) and do heavy damage, if not kill outright. Can't switch in on CM, CM might be able to survive a hit)
Excadrill
Kyurem-B
Conkeldurr
Mega Metagross
Mega Gyarados
Swampert
Zapdos (CM at +1 might be able to tank)

Threats to Calm Mind CAP20
All of CAP20's universal threats
Keldeo
Celebi
Breloom
Serperior
Magnezone
Manaphy (SpDef dependent)
Mega Gardevoir (assuming mono-scald coverage. Double Attack CM with flash cannon beats)
Unaware Clefable (assuming mono-scald coverage. Double Attack CM with flash cannon beats)


Threats to Dragon Dance CAP20
All of CAP20's universal threats
Gyarados
Rotom-W
Choice Scarf Keldeo
Faster offensive pokemon (things like Lopunny, which can outspeed before a +1 and either tear a huge chunk out of or outright KO CAP20. Almost all of them will lose at +1 though)
Generic physical walls (such as Skarmory and Mandibuzz)

Threats Calm Mind CAP20 should be able to set up on
Scald (and burns in general)
Chansey
Clefable
Non-tbolt Latios
Non-tbolt Latias
Azumaril
Scizor sans Superpower
Jirachi
Tentacruel (sans haze)
CroCune and CM (Mega) Slowbro (CM only, DD can't break them in time)
Talonflame (fast taunt is a issue)
Volcarona
Gothitelle (somewhat shaky if trick scarf is a possibility)
Sylveon
Tyranitar (risky)
Anything that cannot at least 2HKO CAP that also lacks a fast taunt.

Threats Dragon Dance CAP20 should be able to set up on
Scald (and burns in general)
Chansey
Clefable
Non-tbolt Latios
Non-tbolt Latias
Azumaril
Scizor sans superpower
Talonflame (fast taunt is an issue)
Volcarona
Gothitelle (somewhat shaky if trick scarf is a possibility)
Sylveon
Tyranitar (risky)
Anything else CAP20 forces out for a turn.
CAP often has a rule of thumb known as the build triangle, quoted below. In general, this is meant to provide a basic guideline of what stats should be emphasized for a given CAP, and which stat(s) should be de-emphasized as a result to counterbalance the effects.

Our Given Rule of Thumb said:
Build Triangle: Fast, Bulky, Powerful - Pick Two (and presumably seclude the other)
We could follow through with this Pick Two guideline... Or maybe, instead, we could pick none and seclude none?

But we also need to keep in mind that the build triangle can to some degree be influenced by our moves. In this case, the use of boosting moves can definitely help define if our CAP is Fast, Bulky, or Powerful. A single set might be Powerful and Bulky after it sets up (such as maybe our Calm Mind Set) but another set might be Fast and Powerful after set up (presumably our Dragon Dance set). In this respect, our build triangle might actually function as two separate triangles for our intended sets. The nature of the boosting moves have, to some degree, defined our build triangles if this is the case. In terms of stats, however, the tricky part is trying to come up with a solution that caters to two different boosting moves (to two different build triangles).

Dragon Dance and Calm Mind emphasize the boosting of very different stats. Between these two boosting moves, we have direct utilization PS, SS, and ST. And while we are not boosting our PT with our moves, the Calm Mind set has a pretty hefty desire for good PT in order to reliably set up in the first place. In short, this is one of the first CAPs in quite some time in which it is pretty apparent that we can't afford to flat out neglect one of our BSR areas here in this Stat Limits stage. That said, we can't expect ourselves to be fully equal in all of or stat ratings, either. We have to carefully cater to the needs our our two different sets, and each set has different needs so it's only natural that our BSR areas will need some variation as well. PS, SS, PT, and SS all are important and have to be balanced carefully and differentiated thoughtfully.

To start us of, I'd like us to consider the following:


1) How do our separate boosting moves affect our BSR categories and the concept of a build triangle? Do the boosting moves themselves already create two distinct build triangles for the different sets? What else do we need to see from our BSR limits that directly take our boosting moves into consideration?

2) Should we drastically emphasize some of the BSR categories in our stats over the others? Can we achieve a balance in our two intended sets if the BSR limits are skewed too severely?

3) Even in the event that a "drastic" emphasis is frowned upon, which of PS, SS, PT, and SS should we put a little more weight into? Contrarily, which is the most expendable that can be lowered the most without harming our concept?

4) Which Pokemon from our threatlist should we primarily be concerned with regarding our BSR limits and our future stats? This is a pretty general question, but could be treated as "which would-be threats do we want to deal with using our stat limits?"

Since all four BSR areas seem to have importance to us and we want to keep our two sets balanced, we might need to be careful about making sure that our stats don't significantly bias one set over the other. For an extreme example, we know that a PS rating of 180 and an SS rating of 75 would highly bias the Dragon Dance set over the Calm Mind set. The above four questions are aimed at generating dialogue about these issues with the aim using this stage to solve these problems. I'm fine with BSR limits being suggested from the get go, but keeping the above in mind when explaining your reasoning will be very helpful.
 
I think what we're actually gonna end up with for this CAP is a very high BSR And this is mostly due to the fact that each boosting set uses a different attacking stat. Our PS should be higher than our SS, just based on the fact that the DDance set is offensive and the CM set is defensive. Also i don't think we can really dumpstat anything, due to the fact that we need every stat. We need both attacking stats for obvious reasons, we need defense, even though CM boosts sp. def, DDance set need the physical bulk so it isn't revenge killed so easily, and for the CM set it will need at least usable physical bulk. Our special tankiness doesn't actually have to be that high, just based off the fact that we are boosting it anyway, and defensive set-up mons can usually get in a few boost anyway just by the nature of defensive boosting, it can't be too low that we need multiple boost to tank well, and it defeats the purpose of the set when its supposed to sponge special attacks with ease when we make the special bulk bad before a boost, it should already be decent to begin with.
 
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Now, this is my first time trying something like this, so I'm likely gonna make a huge fool of myself. But I can try, at least.

As for the build triangle, I think that we might want to head more towards Bulky and Powerful, or maybe even just Powerful, because Dragon Dance boosts Speed, and Calm Mind boosts bulkiness. I think we're gonna need to have a decent amount of physical bulk as well, in order to take priority well and to provide a more defensive balance after using Calm Mind.
 
For this CAP, I feel like we'll need above average Special Tankiness and good Physical Tankiness for the two sets to be decent, as Calm Mind needs a somewhat high physical bulk, and some special bulk so it survives after a boost or two. We'll need good special offense, so that Calm Mind's boosts go on a stat that can use them, and very good physical sweepiness, that being the make-or-break point of the entire Dragon Dance set.

On the triangle, I feel like we should give the CAP the biggest share in power, since the goal of the sets is to be a versatile setup sweeper. We should make both speed(of which people in the threat discussion noted the notable benchmark was having speed >91 to outspeed Landot) and bulkiness slightly above average with about the same emphasis on each.
 
I reckon we'll need the CAP to have good PT because the CM set already boosts effective ST, it should have balanced Sweep stats so that neither DD set nor the CM set are dominant. The Tank stats should be higher than the Sweep stats though because the boosts will be what it sweeps on. Triangle-wise it should have Bulk first then Speed and Power (5-4-4 in terms of a rough ratio).
 

aim

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For CAP 20 I feel that we should focus mainly on an above average PS as well as a good PT and good SS. Due to CAP 20's natural steel typing, we are going to want to be able to take on and switch-into common moves that we resist which are commonly spammed in the OU Metagame. This includes, and is not limited to, Brave Bird, Psyshock, Waterfall and the list goes on. With a good PT CAP 20 can easily switch-into these moves spammed by Talonflame and the Lati twins and be able to set up DD's on them comfortably, potentially allowing a sweep for CAP 20. A believe an above average PS is needed so CAP 20 can power through physically defensive mons that either check or counter us but at the same time are weak to or do not resist our stab. I am talking about the likes of Skarmory and Hippowdon, with an above average PS CAP 20 can possibly go for the 2HK0 on the former with Stealth Rock and an easy close to K0 on the later with a bit of prior damage. This above average PS also will allow CAP 20 to power through the offensive, but still relatively bulky checks such as Garchomp and Magnezone, forcing players to have to play their checks wisely. A good SS is needed so CAP 20 can spam its most spammable water move, Scald, and pack a bunch to those Ground types such as Defensive Landorus-t and Defensive Hippowdon who would otherwise live a "weak" STAB water move and be able to threaten CAP 20 or stop a sweep with Earthquakes/Roar respectively. Due to CAP 20 having access to Calm Mind I don't believe that a significant ST is needed as it has means of boosting that stat if it chooses to be the CM set. Of course, you could argue that "if it has CM why does it need a good SS" but, without a decent SS it won't be able to deal with the afformentioned bulky checks with just a CM or two. With these stats we want to be able to deal with Hippowdon and Landorus-t as well as being able to do damage to other bulky checks who are not weak nor resist CAP 20's water stab.
 

Albacore

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How do our separate boosting moves affect our BSR categories and the concept of a build triangle? Do the boosting moves themselves already create two distinct build triangles for the different sets? What else do we need to see from our BSR limits that directly take our boosting moves into consideration?

Well, we definitely need to build with both sets in mind, and look very carefully at what our BSR limits do on multiple levels. For example, what can we OHKO without boosts? at +1? This is especially relevant when it comes to physical and special tankiness, which concerns both sets. We need to figure out what OHKOs us at 0/0, what 2HKOs the CAP at 252/252+ on the physical side, what 2HKOs the CAP at 252/0 but with +1 SpD on the special side, etc. I don't think the build triangle can work too well here since we need to be bulky, we need to be fast, and we need to be powerful, we just need to be careful to not go overboard in any of these categories.

Should we drastically emphasize some of the BSR categories in our stats over the others? Can we achieve a balance in our two intended sets if the BSR limits are skewed too severely?

This CAP needs to be well-rounded for it to work, so we really shouldn't emphasis one BSR category over the other. However, I don't think putting a little emphasis on one category is necessarily a bad thing. For example,, if we're afraid of the CM set overshadowing the DD set, we can but more emphasis on physicla sweepiness than physical tankiness. So skewering our BST limits can actually create a balance bewteen the sets, as opposed to preventing it.

Even in the event that a "drastic" emphasis is frowned upon, which of PS, SS, PT, and SS should we put a little more weight into? Contrarily, which is the most expendable that can be lowered the most without harming our concept?

Either physical tankiness or sweepiness will be the most important, depending on how much we want to favor either DD or CM. I'm leaning towards physical sweepiness since Water/Steel is already a very good defensive typing, and won't need too much bulk to pull off a CM set well, however it does need enough power to OHKO stuff at +1. Speed shouldn't be too low so as to not lose to scarfers like Landorus-T, and while speed being high doesn't necessarily hurt the concept, it doesn't do anything for it either so we may want to avoid making the CAP too fast.
We don't need too much special tankiness but we may want enough to handle Manaphy and possibly even Zapdos. Special sweepiness seems the most expendable, our exact SpA stat will probably have very little impact over how effective a CM set will be given that it won't need any immediate power whatsoever. As long as we don't go under 60 SpA or so the CM set should be fine.

Which Pokemon from our threatlist should we primarily be concerned with regarding our BSR limits and our future stats? This is a pretty general question, but could be treated as "which would-be threats do we want to deal with using our stat limits?

We shouldn't be concerned about Water types in general : those are more to be dealt with in the movepool stage. The exception being Manaphy, which our special tankiness will play a huge part in whether or not the CM set can beat it. But we want to focus on faster attackers for the DD set, and being able to OHKO these at +1 (Lopunny in particular, though this once again depends on the movepool). We want to focus on Ground types, whether or not CM can take a hit from offensive ones, though it won't actually "beat" most of them per se. We also may want to take a hit from some fighting types, though to a much lesser extent since CM is hard presed todo anything against these, and DD won't be living their hits regardless. We may or may not want DD to have enough power to 2HKO certain defensive Pokemon after a boost. So yeah, stats will decide things DD beats but CM doesn't, but not the other way round (once again, main exception being Manaphy)
 
1) How do our separate boosting moves affect our BSR categories and the concept of a build triangle? Do the boosting moves themselves already create two distinct build triangles for the different sets? What else do we need to see from our BSR limits that directly take our boosting moves into consideration?

So the big complication here is that the Dragon Dance set wants to be Fast and Powerful so it can beat Choice Scarf mons, and Calm Mind set wants to be Powerful and Bulky so it can beat pokemon that attack it on the physical end of the spectrum. This means we probably want CAP to be very Powerful, and to be Bulky and Fast only within reason. Thus, his build Triangle probably looks powerful while only half-picking bulky and fast.


2) Should we drastically emphasize some of the BSR categories in our stats over the others? Can we achieve a balance in our two intended sets if the BSR limits are skewed too severely?

Given that we want to push both a Dragon Dance set and a Calm Mind set, we probably want our PS to be on the high end of good, our SS and ST to be somewhere in the middle of good, and our PT to be somewhere in the middle of very good. Pokemon that fit this description tend to fall into the category of very good BSR. Basically, it's probably going to look something like Mega Altaria as far as PS, SS, PT, and ST except with slightly more natural PS and slightly less natural ST.


3) Even in the event that a "drastic" emphasis is frowned upon, which of PS, SS, PT, and ST should we put a little more weight into? Contrarily, which is the most expendable that can be lowered the most without harming our concept?

PS really has very little flexibility as far as this CAP is concerned. As I said, Mega Altaria is what we're aiming at, so if the PS goes much higher than what I described above, it's probably going to be too good as a Dragon Dancer. That being said, Water/Steel is a bit on the mediocre side as far as offensive typing, and incredibly good as defensive typing. Some of the best special attacks in the game are Water moves, and CAP already dodges most of the huge pitfalls that come with a Calm Mind set based on typing and ability. The Calm Mind set is already a little too conceptually good as a Calm Mind set, so we need to make sure Dragon Dance doesn't fall behind. Our most flexible stats are the Defensive stats, and those are probably going to be the stats we have to tinker around with most.


4) Which Pokemon from our threatlist should we primarily be concerned with regarding our BSR limits and our future stats? This is a pretty general question, but could be treated as "which would-be threats do we want to deal with using our stat limits?"

Speed is going to be the ultimate deciding factor against a good number of our counters, such as Lando and Keldeo. ST is going to be an important deciding factor in whether things like Raikou can punch through us before our Calm Mind gives us a good enough security blanket. PT is going to be the make-or-break factor in whether we can actually beat Megagross, and he's probably the most relevant threat we have to deal with with our stats, so he should probably be our benchmark for that.
 
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jas61292

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1) How do our separate boosting moves affect our BSR categories and the concept of a build triangle? Do the boosting moves themselves already create two distinct build triangles for the different sets? What else do we need to see from our BSR limits that directly take our boosting moves into consideration?
When it comes to the build triangle this CAP, while I have heard some talk about needing to ignore it, I feel exactly the opposite. More than ever I think it is important to make sure with stick to the triangle. People seem to often forget that the build triangle is not a measure of stat spreads, but rather a measure of Pokemon. A Pokemon that runs has middling speed and power would still count as fast and powerful if its main set uses Dragon Dance to great effect. And that is exactly what we need to do here. Now, it is true that we do need some of everything, but definitely not at once, so our real goal should be to make sure that we can be good at some things, while making sure neither Dragon Dance nor Calm Mind makes us great at all three.

2) Should we drastically emphasize some of the BSR categories in our stats over the others? Can we achieve a balance in our two intended sets if the BSR limits are skewed too severely?
3) Even in the event that a "drastic" emphasis is frowned upon, which of PS, SS, PT, and SS should we put a little more weight into? Contrarily, which is the most expendable that can be lowered the most without harming our concept?
To these, I would answer that we need somewhat of a focus, but not to an extent that we might on some other projects. I think we need to look at the triangle, as above, and figure out what is necessary to make each set good at what it does, without actually being that great at anything else naturally. When we look like this, I believe that power becomes clearly the aspect of the triangle we can focus the most on. Dragon Dance will give power and speed. Calm Mind will give Power and Bulk. We don't want to have all three on either, but with Power appearing on both, we can easily allow ourselves some more leniency with regard to that element. Specifically within this, I think the Physical side of the spectrum is where we have the most freedom, since it will ideally lack the bulk that a CM set would provide, and therefore would need power to make sure it can get the job done. Even if the CM set is eventually powerful, the added bulk means it does not need to hit as hard as quickly. With that said, I do not think we need to focus on speed to nearly the same extent (as DD makes us fast, and CM should not need speed), so I am not sure if the actual PS limit (derived from Atk and Spe) actually would need to be that much greater than anything else.

On the other side of things, ST is easily the most expendable. While I do not believe we want a ton of PT either, so as to avoid making the DD set too well rounded, ST is far more expendable since the CM set will be boosting it, allowing use to be specially bulky for the CM set, but not for the DD one. It is important to make sure this is also the case on the physical side, however, decent, but not great bulk on one side and below average on the other would be enough to prevent the DD set from ever being thought of as bulky.

4) Which Pokemon from our threatlist should we primarily be concerned with regarding our BSR limits and our future stats? This is a pretty general question, but could be treated as "which would-be threats do we want to deal with using our stat limits?
The answer to this depends on which part of the threat list you are talking about. The list that was posted in HeaL's post is very much a list of things we should be losing to. So, we should be concerned with making sure that we are not so powerful as to easily KO any of them (bar guys who clearly function solely to revenge or cripple a la Excadrill). Similarly, we should be making sure our bulk is not so great as to tank the hits from these mons. If Garchomp, for instance, is having issues OHKOing the DD set, I personally think we are looking too bulky.

On the other side of things, as far as what we should indeed be looking to beat with stats, I think the key here is offense. We want to make sure that, outside the aforementioned threats, our DD set can deal with offensive things AFTER it sets up. Mega Lopunny would be a good example of something like this, as it is a threat before set up, but ideally not afterwards. If we do not have the power to break these kinds of Pokemon at +1, then it will generally not be worth using the set. More defensive threats are also something we may need to look at, but those are generally easier to sure up in the movepool stage, meaning, if we need a focus, it would be the offensively inclined faster Pokemon.
 

Bughouse

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The CAP will by definition not be bad at anything. Its base stats will need to be quite good across the board. This was unavoidable with the 2 boosting moves that were picked. But mons are more than their base stats, and we instead have two modes that we need to balance.

The goal should just be making sure that DD (0 investment in bulk most likely) doesn't qualify as "bulky" but can become fast and powerful (probably with LO) and that CM (lots of investment in bulk, most likely, and also special boosting) doesn't qualify as fast and is probably only clearly powerful after 2 CMs, but is solidly bulky.
 
Physical Tankiness (PT)
Our CAP should have slightly above average physical bulk that can not only be complemented with special bulk increases from Calm Mind, but also solid bulk that gives it good opportunities on setting up against offensive teams. A solid base HP and defense should be suitable enough for the CAP.
Physical Sweepiness (PS)
The CAP should only have enough power to sweep a weakened offensive team at +1. However, being able to deal bulky Grounds with a STAB Waterfall after a Dragon Dance and Life Orb boost is important, though OHKOing every single bulky Ground-type is not necessary.
Special Tankiness (ST)
Having high Special Defense is not as important as other stats because we always have Calm Mind, and the most common Specially-based Revenge killer, Latios, is mostly likely going to be at -2 from using Draco Meteor when it is being set up on using Dragon Dance.
Special Sweepiness (SS)
Enough special power to break through defensive teams with Chansey and CroBro out of the equation is all we need in terms of SS. The CAP should have an adequate amount of special attack to do so, but not too much to the point where it is overwhelming.
 

nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
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Crucial numbers that CAP20 is going to want to keep in mind, insfoar as stat benchmarks go for maximum/minimum values:

92 Speed is the minimum if we wish to outspeed base 91 Speed Choiced Scarf pokemon after a Dragon Dance with 252 Speed EVs and a positive nature(namely Landorus-T). If we wish to outspeed Choice Scarf Keldeo, this number goes up to 109.
Assuming a neutral nature, and 252 EVs, 110 ATK is the bare minimum to be guaranteed an OHKO upon Mega Lopunny at +1 after Stealth Rock with Waterfall. This ATK value also OHKOs Latios with Iron Head. Just two arbitrary threats we probably want to OHKO.
100 HP is required to avoid the 4HKO from Seismic Toss with 252 EVs into HP, and is assumed for the following defense / special defense numbers.
103 Defense with no investment is the maximum amount of defense CAP20 can have and still be OHKOed by itemless 252 atk neutral Garchomp 100% of the time after stealth rock.
82 Special Defense is the highest value we can have and still be OHKO'd by Assault Vest Raikou's Thunderbolt without any defensive investment after Stealth Rock. 90 Special Defense is the highest we can have and still be 2HKOed by Rotom-W's Volt Switch after rocks.
Special Attack is pretty much irrelevant since we have Calm Mind but 95 SpAtk OHKOs Hippowdon at +1 with Scald and 0 EV investment / neutral nature.

So, we likely don't want to have our BSR limits be much higher than allowing for those stat thresholds (or, in the case of ATK/SPE, not any lower). This would give us, all numbers rounded up to the next integer -

A maximum of 172 Physical Tankiness
A minimum of 174 Physical Sweepiness
A maximum of 141 Special Tankiness
A maximum of 161 Special Sweepiness
For a BSR of 362.

However, if we don't want to allow for outspeeding Choice Scarf Keldeo, our Physical Sweepiness minimum would be lowered to 155, and our Special Sweepiness minimum would be lowered to 145, for a BSR of 337.
 
So I've been looking at numbers, and now I have some definite results.

So the first thing we should talk about is where our Speed stat should be. There are four different speed tiers we could have our CAP be at. We could go for 92 to with the relevant reason being Landorus-T, and we really can't go any lower than this speed tier. We have to punish Lando with DD, and 92 is the minimum it takes to accomplish that. We can go for 96, with the relevant reason being Kyurem-B. If we go for this speed tier, Choice Kyurem-B can become a set-up opportunity, and that's huge. Our third option is 101/103, which has actually a good number of relevant pokemon, not the least of which being Zapdos. I slashed 103 because really the only pokemon this actually adds as far as relevance goes is Garchomp. The last option is 109 to outspeed Choice Scarf Keldeo, but that would honesty make CAP way too good. Even ignoring the fact that the only way an OU Pokemon could ever outspeed CAP after Dragon Dance is by strapping Choice Scarf to a Raikou, Calm Mind would be absolutely ridiculous. It would be insanely fast, insanely bulky, and insanely powerful. That's simply unacceptable. As far as speed goes, really anything between 92 and 99 is acceptable, and we can go up to 101 if CAP is deemed to need that much.

As nyttyn pointed out, 110 ATK is a really good offensive number for dealing with Lopunny and Latios. It also means that we can 2HKO Mega-Sableye after a Dragon Dance with LO and Meteor Mash, even with a neutral nature. We don't want to go as high as 122, as that's where Adamant CAPs can start 2HKOing Rotom-W.

As far as Special Attack is concerned, we have to have at least 83 Special Attack. Otherwise, CAP's Physical Attack after one Dragon Dance will exceed CAP's Special Attack after two Calm Minds. CAP simply won't grow fast enough to justify a Calm Mind set without at least this much Special Attack. 100 Special Attack gives us the same offensive pressure as non-mega Slowbro, which might be a bit oppressive given that the opponent won't know which answer he needs to switch in.

As far as Health goes, 100 gets our Substitutes past Seismic Toss with full HP investment, and 131 gets them past Seismic Toss with 4 HP investment and 132 gets them by without investment. I'm going to be working with 131 HP for now, but similar calcs can be done with other base HP totals.

73 Defense is the absolute minimum we need so that the Dragon Dance set can take an Earthquake and a Bullet Punch from Megagross without dying and also 2HKO back assuming set-up has already happened and assuming we aren't using Life Orb (or 89 Defense if you're working with 100 HP). If we are, it takes 79 Defense to accomplish this(about 97 if you're using 100 Health). If we choose to counter Megagross with the Calm Mind set, the relevant number is also 79 Defense, as the Leftovers stop Earthquake from 2HKOing CAP(assuming a Bold Nature and full 252/252 investment) and let us get in with Scald, assuming set-up has happened. We should avoid going over 87 though (106 to those using 100 HP as a basis), because at that point we surpass Mega Gyarados in Bulkiness, making CAP the bulkiest Dragon Dancer in OU with only Mega Slowbro being bulkier as far as Calm Minders go. We'd simply be too good at that point thanks to our excellent Defensive typing.

In regards to Special Defense, Raikou should probably not kill us if we have 252 HP EVs, so we need 63 Special Defense to do that. That being said, our Dragon Dance set probably has no business walling Raikou, so tat limits us to no more than 76.

If you run the math, this gives us limits of:

PS
min: 155
max: 186

SS
min: 123
max: 151

PT
min: 162
max: 176

ST
min: 134
max: 158

As far as BSR goes, the minimum we can fill all these criteria with is 312, and for balance's sake we shouldn't step over 345.

I realize these limits are rather broad, but it should form a decent enough starting point.
 
So I've been looking at numbers, and now I have some definite results.

So the first thing we should talk about is where our Speed stat should be. There are four different speed tiers we could have our CAP be at. We could go for 92 to with the relevant reason being Landorus-T, and we really can't go any lower than this speed tier. We have to punish Lando with DD, and 92 is the minimum it takes to accomplish that. We can go for 96, with the relevant reason being Kyurem-B. If we go for this speed tier, Choice Kyurem-B can become a set-up opportunity, and that's huge. Our third option is 101/103, which has actually a good number of relevant pokemon, not the least of which being Zapdos. I slashed 103 because really the only pokemon this actually adds as far as relevance goes is Garchomp. The last option is 109 to outspeed Choice Scarf Keldeo, but that would honesty make CAP way too good. Even ignoring the fact that the only way an OU Pokemon could ever outspeed CAP after Dragon Dance is by strapping Choice Scarf to a Raikou, Calm Mind would be absolutely ridiculous. It would be insanely fast, insanely bulky, and insanely powerful. That's simply unacceptable. As far as speed goes, really anything between 92 and 99 is acceptable, and we can go up to 101 if CAP is deemed to need that much.

As nyttyn pointed out, 110 ATK is a really good offensive number for dealing with Lopunny and Latios. It also means that we can 2HKO Mega-Sableye after a Dragon Dance with LO and Meteor Mash, even with a neutral nature. We don't want to go as high as 122, as that's where Adamant CAPs can start 2HKOing Rotom-W.

As far as Special Attack is concerned, we have to have at least 83 Special Attack. Otherwise, CAP's Physical Attack after one Dragon Dance will exceed CAP's Special Attack after two Calm Minds. CAP simply won't grow fast enough to justify a Calm Mind set without at least this much Special Attack. 100 Special Attack gives us the same offensive pressure as non-mega Slowbro, which might be a bit oppressive given that the opponent won't know which answer he needs to switch in.

As far as Health goes, 100 gets our Substitutes past Seismic Toss with full HP investment, and 131 gets them past Seismic Toss with 4 HP investment and 132 gets them by without investment. I'm going to be working with 131 HP for now, but similar calcs can be done with other base HP totals.

73 Defense is the absolute minimum we need so that the Dragon Dance set can take an Earthquake and a Bullet Punch from Megagross without dying and also 2HKO back assuming set-up has already happened and assuming we aren't using Life Orb (or 89 Defense if you're working with 100 HP). If we are, it takes 79 Defense to accomplish this(about 97 if you're using 100 Health). If we choose to counter Megagross with the Calm Mind set, the relevant number is also 79 Defense, as the Leftovers stop Earthquake from 2HKOing CAP(assuming a Bold Nature and full 252/252 investment) and let us get in with Scald, assuming set-up has happened. We should avoid going over 87 though (106 to those using 100 HP as a basis), because at that point we surpass Mega Gyarados in Bulkiness, making CAP the bulkiest Dragon Dancer in OU with only Mega Slowbro being bulkier as far as Calm Minders go. We'd simply be too good at that point thanks to our excellent Defensive typing.

In regards to Special Defense, Raikou should probably not kill us if we have 252 HP EVs, so we need 63 Special Defense to do that. That being said, our Dragon Dance set probably has no business walling Raikou, so tat limits us to no more than 76.

If you run the math, this gives us limits of:

PS
min: 155
max: 186

SS
min: 123
max: 151

PT
min: 162
max: 176

ST
min: 134
max: 158

As far as BSR goes, the minimum we can fill all these criteria with is 312, and for balance's sake we shouldn't step over 345.

I realize these limits are rather broad, but it should form a decent enough starting point.
I disagree with that physical defense value; I actually think that a maximum of 87 defense is too low. The CAP's minimum should be base 88 defense, as this ensures that Jolly Life Orb Breloom will never OHKO with Mach Punch. While such a set is not common, it is still viable within OU. I would even go as far as to put the minimum at base 96 Defense so that unboosted Keldeo will never OHKO with Secret Sword. Being bulkier than Mega Gyarados is not necessarily a bad thing, especially since Mega Gyara still has its advantages over the CAP.
 
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jas61292

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Reminder people, this thread is to discuss stat limits, not specific spreads or stats. Its all fine and good if you have a specific stat you like, but this is not the place to try and justify that. This thread is about deciding about where to set limits so that we can not go overboard on anything with respect to the concept. While you can certainly talk about calculations and what specific Pokemon can do against specific base stat ratings, please do not start arguing about specific stats, or assuming that specific stats are a given with respect to others.
 

Qwilphish

when everything you touch turns to gold
1) How do our separate boosting moves affect our BSR categories and the concept of a build triangle? Do the boosting moves themselves already create two distinct build triangles for the different sets? What else do we need to see from our BSR limits that directly take our boosting moves into consideration?
The separate boosting moves forces our BSR categories to not lean too far to either side in order for both sets to shine. The two sets will have different builds two them as we have established and our BSR will need to reflect this. It needs to be wide in order to accommodate for the two sets for each one to be viable.

2) Should we drastically emphasize some of the BSR categories in our stats over the others? Can we achieve a balance in our two intended sets if the BSR limits are skewed too severely?
Looking at the threat list we need to emphasize PT and SS to make our two sets equally viable. SS is so that we can have good Speed for the DD set without overemphasizing Attack and PT so that we can set up on the list of Pokemon that we chose easily, especially since most Special Attackers that we want to set up on are fairly weak. That isn't to say that the other stat limits should be skewed on the bad side, rather those two should be emphasized. If any one limit is skewed severely then having both sets be equally viable will be impossible.

3) Even in the event that a "drastic" emphasis is frowned upon, which of PS, SS, PT, and ST should we put a little more weight into? Contrarily, which is the most expendable that can be lowered the most without harming our concept?
PT should be emphasized the most in order to make setting up for both sets easier as without it neither set will work. Honestly, none of the limits can be discouraged as long as no limit is "too" good (whatever that subjective limit is)

4) Which Pokemon from our threatlist should we primarily be concerned with regarding our BSR limits and our future stats? This is a pretty general question, but could be treated as "which would-be threats do we want to deal with using our stat limits?"
We want to deal with "Pokemon we can set up on" rather than the ones that threaten us because both sets will benefit rather than focusing on any specific Pokemon which threatens us which is better dealt with at the secondary ability / movepool stage.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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One of the things we're blessed to have this CAP is we can assume two stat-up moves as a basis. This means we can assume "Fast" comes from Dragon Dance while "Bulky" comes from Calm Mind. CAP is otherwise well balanced, but in the world of Mega Pokemon to call something "Bulky" is a pretty large feat. The issue with BSR is that it is based on Base Stats, not Invested Stats, so keep that in mind. Of these, where we place our speed guidelines are the most important for Sweepiness.

Here are a few maximum values based on various speed tiers and a given Maximum:

Physical Sweepiness:
Max PS: 175
Atk / Spe:
105 / 109
108 / 103
109 / 100
114 / 96
118 / 92

Special Sweepiness:
Max SS: 150
SpA / Spe:
90 / 109
92 / 103
93 / 100
97 / 96
100 / 92

The object of these maximums is to make sure out boosting sets become the focus, and not slapping on a Choice Item and making that the primary set. I feel these two maximums give our CAP the right combination of speed and firepower without making Choice Items particarly viable. A very fast CAP (109) could run Scarf, but with only 105 Attack (or 90 SpA) and Water/Steel STABs, it would not be very viable.

The last issue is Physical Tankiness, which is essential to both sets - DD's to blunt priority and CM's to give setup time. Here's the PT of various Pokemon:
Physical Tankiness:
Suicune (100/115): 195.41
Tyranitar (100/110): 187.17
Skarmory (65/140): 183.15
Jirachi (100/100): 170.68
Swampert (100/90): 154.20
Rotom-A: (50/107): 121.80

I really think for CAP20 to have a good CM set, it needs PT between the Jirachi and Suicune range, and not less than Swampert. A Max of 190 would put it below Suicune but in the right general comfort zone.

Special Tankiness is still important because we'll be boosting it, but based on our sweepiness ratings we'll be faster than most. A few Pokemon with Special Tankiness that might be desirable:
Special Tankiness:
Swampert: (100 / 90): 155.32
Azumarill: (100 / 80): 139.02
Hypothetical 100 / 75: 130.87
Rotom-A (50 / 107): 123.27
Hypothetical 100 / 70 : 122.72
Conkeldurr: (105 / 65): 118.53

I think anything lower than 120 is going to hamper CM's effectiveness, but anything above 160 or so is going to break our triangle, so I'd say 120-160 would be the best limit for ST.
 
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Cretacerus

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From what I've seen so far, the proposed Tankiness ratings have all been based on the premise that CAP will run a 252HP/252Def investment on the CM set, in the attempt to give it good physical bulk to work with.
However, the same effect could be achieved by giving CAP a higher base Defense to work with and require it to invest into a rather poor Special Defense stat instead. Both approaches would ultimately leave CM with the same stats, but make a huge difference for the DD set which doesn't invest into its defenses.

Specifically, it would result in the DD set having
  • noticeably lower SpD compared to CM: this would solidify CM's main niche of being able to set-up on Special Attackers that DD can't take on. The DD set should rely mostly on forcing switches to gain a single set-up turn, and not freely boost against same things as CM (for example Bulky Waters)
  • higher physical bulk: this allows the DD set to focus defensively on what is relevant: surviving priority attacks (Mach Punch and Sucker Punch) from the physically offensive threats that can give the CM set trouble, such as Breloom and Conkeldurr. While most of the PT Ratings proposed so far are capable this, it only takes some Entry Hazards or Life Orb recoil to let both sets fail against those threats, which is quite unfavorable for our concept. Furthermore, focusing one one defensive stat provides the DD set with a lot more set-up opportunities than balanced defenses would, and doesn't clash with the CM set's target due to only needing one boost.
The only disadvantage I see with this route is that the high Defense stat required might give unwanted incentive to use CAP as a bulky attacker with Scald and Recovery, despite poor Special Bulk and practically non-existent support movepool.
That being said, we don't have to go to the extreme 252HP/252SpD investment. As Clefable demonstrates with its CM set (252HP/160Def/96SpD) mixed defense investment can indeed be the best option for certain Stat Spreads.
My point is, perhaps we should be more generous with the Physical Tankiness Ratings to give such stat spreads a chance, they certainly have benefits for our concept which we shouldn't completely overlook. Of course, having both the great Defense and maximum Special Defense on the same Stat Spread should not be allowed, but in my opinion it would be a good idea to give people some flexibility in which defense stat they want to emphazise on the DD set.
 
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HeaLnDeaL

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Deck Knight, I think there's a chance your BSR calcs are using the old spreadsheet, since mine is giving me lower values for all of the defensive stat combos that you listed.

At this point I think it's very fair to say that we want to emphasize PS over SS, and maybe to a lesser consensus PT over ST as well. The reasoning behind this seems pretty basic but is also compelling; we obviously want the Dragon Dance set to function after one boost, whereas we want the Calm Mind set to more slowly accumulate boosts.

And while some of us are stressing the importance of PT, I myself do have a few worries that too high of a PT could end up helping the Dragon Dance set out too much. In general, when it comes to the defensive ratings, the range of opinions seems to grow. Therefore, from this point on I'd like to see primarily arguments regarding PT and ST. There's something just nagging in the back of my mind telling me that the discrepancy of opinions here isn't quite an accident and that we might be missing something really important if we don't consider PT/ST more thoroughly now.

At this time, I might as well share my rough personal inclinations for BSR maximums are below.
PT: 180
PS: 170
ST: 140
SS: 150
BSR: 355

Each category is inflated a tiny bit to allow for variation beyond my personal ideal, but the BSR total is compensated a bit as a result. Note that this is not in stone, and I want to hear more discussion in particular regarding PT and ST before I'm ready to close. A lot of the "key stats" posted so far have influenced these ratings, and in most areas I'm sort of juggling between nyttyn's and Deck Knight's proposals. That said, after talking to some others, I'm not super inclined to show BSR ranges and want to stick more to maximums and not bother with subjective minimums. In general, I'm a tiny bit opposed to giving us enough PS (enough speed) to outspeed scarf Keldeo. If our speed is sweeper material before setting up, then it might skew our triangles a bit too much.

Consider this a (roughly) 24 hour warning though realistically I'll be driving to class 24 hours from now, so you'll probably have wiggle room. However, this is also dependent on how much the discussion here progresses.
 
The biggest issue I see with some of the very high PT ratings is that we completely lose Landorus-T as a check. If we go with Suicune level PT for example,
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Suicune (Water/Steel): 314-372 (92 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO.
With just a little investment, DD Cap could theoretically use a free switch to come in on Choice Scarf Lando-T, Dragon Dance on the Earthquake, and then outspeed and KO. While Cap would get wrecked in the process, I still don't think revenge killing scarf Lando-T locked into Earthquake should be something Cap is capable of. By that same token, Defensive Landorus can't always 2HKO the Calm Mind set with that much PT.
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune (Water/Steel): 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
If we give our Cap PT up in the 195 range, it completely messes with the most common Pokemon on our threat list. While my personal preference would be something closer to 180, I think the maximum on PT should be 190 at the absolute highest, since that will ensure we retain one of our most important checks.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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I agree that the the physical tankiness limit should be somewhere around 180. This amount of physical bulk enables us, with maximal physical defensive investement, to take Adamant MLopunny's HJK, Banded Azumarill's Superpower, and EPlate Lando-T's EQ from full, avoid being 2HKOed by banded Talonflame's Flare Blitz, as well as survive Sub CM Keldeo's Secret Sword from full with a 0/0 spread. These are relatively useful hits to take and we may or may not want to be able to take them, but I don't really see the CAP needing much more than this to function effectively as a CMer, and as far as I can tell there aren't many notable jump points beyond this level of tankiness that are worth aiming for, so this seems like an appropriate limit.

As for special tankiness, getting this right is a bit less important than physical tankiness, but around 160 is just enough to take standard Zapdos's TBolt after a SpD boost which we may or may not want to do. More notably, it lets us always beat Tail Glow Energy Ball Manaphy 1v1, a pretty important benchmark. Any more than that could be detrimental since, for example, then Mega Manectric can actually fail to beat us 1v1 assuming the CAP is already at +1 which should probably not happen. And then we have to consider the fact hat the CAP can easily afford to invest in SpD and handle those Electric types : for instance, if the CAP runs max SpD investment, any more than 155 prevents LO Thundurus from 2HKOing it once at +1 which we probably don't want either (though the CAP will probably never run max SpD anyway if that prevents it from taking important hits on the physical side).
 
One of the things we're blessed to have this CAP is we can assume two stat-up moves as a basis. This means we can assume "Fast" comes from Dragon Dance while "Bulky" comes from Calm Mind. CAP is otherwise well balanced, but in the world of Mega Pokemon to call something "Bulky" is a pretty large feat. The issue with BSR is that it is based on Base Stats, not Invested Stats, so keep that in mind. Of these, where we place our speed guidelines are the most important for Sweepiness.

Here are a few maximum values based on various speed tiers and a given Maximum:

Physical Sweepiness:
Max PS: 175
Atk / Spe:
105 / 109
108 / 103
109 / 100
114 / 96
118 / 92

Special Sweepiness:
Max SS: 150
SpA / Spe:
90 / 109
92 / 103
93 / 100
97 / 96
100 / 92

The object of these maximums is to make sure out boosting sets become the focus, and not slapping on a Choice Item and making that the primary set. I feel these two maximums give our CAP the right combination of speed and firepower without making Choice Items particarly viable. A very fast CAP (109) could run Scarf, but with only 105 Attack (or 90 SpA) and Water/Steel STABs, it would not be very viable.

The last issue is Physical Tankiness, which is essential to both sets - DD's to blunt priority and CM's to give setup time. Here's the PT of various Pokemon:
Physical Tankiness:
Suicune (100/115): 195.41
Tyranitar (100/110): 187.17
Skarmory (65/140): 183.15
Jirachi (100/100): 170.68
Swampert (100/90): 154.20
Rotom-A: (50/107): 121.80

I really think for CAP20 to have a good CM set, it needs PT between the Jirachi and Suicune range, and not less than Swampert. A Max of 190 would put it below Suicune but in the right general comfort zone.

Special Tankiness is still important because we'll be boosting it, but based on our sweepiness ratings we'll be faster than most. A few Pokemon with Special Tankiness that might be desirable:
Special Tankiness:
Swampert: (100 / 90): 155.32
Azumarill: (100 / 80): 139.02
Hypothetical 100 / 75: 130.87
Rotom-A (50 / 107): 123.27
Hypothetical 100 / 70 : 122.72
Conkeldurr: (105 / 65): 118.53

I think anything lower than 120 is going to hamper CM's effectiveness, but anything above 160 or so is going to break our triangle, so I'd say 120-160 would be the best limit for ST.
Are we using the same calculator? I've got the 175 max PS stats at 165... or did you do 165 on purpose to leave room for improvement? I've got the latest update from bugmaniacbob and Suicune's got 190.57 PT...
 

Deck Knight

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I thought I had downloaded the uploaded sheet earlier, after the ORAS changes were made. When I checked it before I re-downloaded, it did not have ORAS Megas.

I doubt I'll have time to fix it before the thread closes due to my schedule today, so sorry about that.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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Alright, I'm deciding that our Stat Limits should be the following:

PT: 180
PS: 170
ST: 145
SS: 150
BSR: 355

Note that all of these numbers are maximum values. No minimum values are being listed. I've bumped the ST from my most recent post just a smidgen, since even with the small increase the would-be KOers such as AV Raikou will still OHKO through SR the vast majority of the time. All in all the bump is small and not very noticeable and is only meant to allow for more freedom in the Stats Submission stage.

In a brief rundown, the PT allows us to be bulky but not at the level of Suicune's bulk. The PS is meant to allow us to outpace choice-scarf Lando-T but I personally don't think outspeeding scarf Keldeo is something we should go out of our way to do. The ST is meant to make the Dragon Dance set lose to decently powerful electric types, whereas the SS attempts to find a middle ground between not immediately threatening but with the potential to be powerful after set up.

And with that said, I hand this over to nyttyn for any last adjustments.
 
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