np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

Hi guys, after taking into account both community input from this thread and our personal experiences from official tournaments and ladder play we, OU Council, have decided to suspect test Metagrossite this round.

As most of you know already, Mega-Metagross is a fearsome sweeper. Metagrossite boosted Metagross' already impressive Attack and Defense stats, while also substantially increasing its Special Defense, Special Attack and, most importantly, Speed. Furthermore, Mega-Metagross got an incredibly useful ability in Tough Claws, which commends Metagross' massive physical learnset, basically giving Metagross a free Life Orb boost (with no recoil damage) to most of its attacks. Not only does Mega-Metagross have next to no safe switch ins but, given its base 110 Speed, excellent bulk on both the ends of its defensive spectrum and solid defensive typing, this monster is also pretty hard to revenge kill, as most of regular Metagross revenge killers are either too slow to outspeed Mega-Metagross or incapable of dealing enough damage to take it down. For the above reasons, Mega Metagross is proving to be an extremely centralizing force in the current ORAS metagame and therefore we believe Mega-Metagross deserves to be looked at more closely.

In order to vote, you'll need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 or more on the OU Suspect Test ladder (in which the Metagrossite will be banned) that will be implemented very soon. Please note that this rating may not be the final rating required, and we reserve the right to increase or decrease the requirements based upon the first week of laddering. The suspect test will last for approximately 2 weeks and will end on Wednesday February 25. The vote will take place in roughly one week after that.

Use this thread to discuss the suspects and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact McMeghan, Bloo, gr8astard, Haunter, or M Dragon through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.

Good luck and have fun laddering!

Rules for posting in this thread:
1) no one liners nor uninformed posts;
2) no discussion on other potential suspects;
3) no discussion on the Suspect process;
4) you're required to make respectful posts;
5) you're required to read this thread before posting.

Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

Antar's edit: as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

Here are some sample values:
Credit for the illustration goes to anundeadboy.
Credit for the music goes to Reymedy.

I am currently in favour of a ban because as an offence player I find it incredibly hard to find a counter or even check to this thing. Most answers are either defensive or are Megas; so this basically means if I want to use, say, Mega Gallade, Mega Pinsir or something then I'm pretty much fucked. I haven't got too much to this, clearly, but the basic idea is that at the very least it's incredible difficult to find answers to.

Honestly, Mega meta has its fair share of checks (slowbro and suicune standing out as two of the better ones vs non-gk variants, but there are others, too - others being landot, defensive mega scizor, fat starmie, skarmory, etc.), but the metagame needs a change atm because it's really match-up oriented and the quality of it is questionable. Meta is probably the most broken pokemon in OU, so I'd advocate a ban solely to start the 'fixing up' of the metagame.

to go into metagross' pros / cons, it is pretty versatile and strong - generally runs mmash / zen headbutt / hammer arm (or eq I guess, but Hammer's better) and the last move can be pursuit / agility / gk / sr / bp / whatever you want really, so the versatility is cool and can help support teammates (i.e: support for cm keld w/ pursuit) or eliminate checks (i.e: gk for the aforementioned slowbro/suicune). it does start out slow before mega evolving and is vulnerable to things like intimidate from lando-t upon mega evolving, so it can't always be breaking through opposing teams and it's not too much of a pain to deal with at times on the flip side. I think it is borderline broken when you look at it in perspective, but it'd definitely be better for the metagame for it to be banned

It has a number of checks including Slowbro, Landorus T, Ferrothorn, rotom W, sableye, Gliscor, however with it's access to a huge movepool it does create a guessing game similar to the Greninja scenario where by the time you have figured out it's 4 moves it could have taken out multiple pokemon not to mention it's in a high speed tier and once it's threats are gone it cane sweep very easily given access to priority bullet punch. Also, slowbro may not be a check if it is running grass knot. Lets also remember that this thing can pursuit trap Latis on a good switch in. It is also easy to form a core around this thing. Keldeo and clefable are very common along with magnezone, Raikou, and lando t.
Ban

I am in favor of a ban due to the fact that there are few ways of checking it. It can easily take out Gliscor or Landorus with its coverage of Ice Punch, it's possible for it to use Hammer Arm to check Ferrothorn, and hyper-offensive mons usually get at least 2HKOed and usually doesn't find itself outsped, provided that the opponent isn't holding a Choice Scarf. Supporting this powerhouse isn't too tough, either. The only thing that can switch into Metagross is Slowbro, but one can run Thundurus, Bisharp etc. to take care of it.

I'm glad they're suspecting this thing. This thing barely has any switch ins. And the most common switch in, Skarmory, can't do a thing back to it. Mega Metagross is also a huge problem to stall teams because they simply lack the power to dent that thing. It has an amazing stat lay-out and a pretty good typing. Curious to see the votes.
Also, a Mega Metagross suspect means Pokeaim is going to do suspect laddering I think. So that's something to look forward to.

Let's be honest, you all saw this coming.

Mega Metagross has the combination of power and speed to make it a great all-out attacker, plus the bulk to set up an Agility if it really wants to. Combine that with Tough Claws and a plethora of attacking options, STAB or otherwise, and you have a monster on your hands.

There is actually a fair amount of stuff that can live a hit and do good damage back, and others that can revenge kill it. That said, many of them don't always KO a full HP Megagross, even if it happens to be running a Hasty nature, and Jolly variants are nearly impossible to OHKO. This all but requires at least two teamslots for it, for instance, two scarfed EQ users, or one scarfed EQ user and a Spikes stacker (and Spikes stackers are relatively uncommon). And even the checks will risk taking hefty damage from Meteor Mash or something like that if they are outsped or miss the KO. So, often, best case scenario, one thing is dead and another is weakened or in a situation where it can be checked, and all you've done is kill Metagross.

I would consider Mega Metagross to be an overcentralizing force on OU, thus I am in favor of a ban on Metagrossite.

I just want to say as a Physically attacking Pokemon the capability to 2HKO the premier balance and offense utility 'Mon defensive Landorus-T (assuming Clear Body) after SR, WITHOUT a super effective move, is insane.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 166-196 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Like wtf is this lol

The insane speed tier, well balanced stats, and massive defenses speak for themselves. Not to mention a seemingly random movepool of various moves that get boosted by Tough Claws, like GK, which happens to beat a ton of what you would think are Metagross switchins, like Slowbro or Hippowdon. Sure, this thing has slight 4MSS, but really it has enough space to run what it needs to depending on your team. I'd go off on a limb to say the boosting sets are /usually/ less useful in a general sense, as a simple 4 attacks is all Metagross needs to already threaten a frighteningly large portion of the tier (and also fits more of its hit-and-run style of play)

Look at the S-rank Pokemon before ORAS. Metagross singlehandedly smeckledorfs all of them, except maybe Garchomp, and this is without mentioning that Gross has access to Ice Punch. A physically-oriented Steel-type that can outspeed and OHKO Keldeo is just dumb imo

A lot of people will say it "lacks OHKOing power" for the most part, and this is somewhat true. However, Metagross's insane bulk allows it to tank a bunch of hits if necessary, and its general resistance to hazards (SR and TSpikes, and the latter is definitely important for offensive 'Mons) allows it to come in again and again. Not to mention that its MAIN STABS carry a 20% chance to RAISE ITS ALREADY STUPID DAMAGE OUTPUT or flinch the opponent, respectively, making the opponent fight a losing battle if they are forced to recover off damage frequently (think Metagross against, say, Hippo)

Metagross, being a Mega Pokemon, obviously carries an opportunity cost from using it, as you give up your Mega slot. However, being a Mega that can check and sweep so much of the metagame, including other Mega Pokemon, there often are few reasons NOT to use it. It's a cohesive 'Mon that can patch up speed issues, power issues, fairy issues, mega issues, Lati/Dragon issues, and more.

I'll elaborate on this more in edits, just getting this down first.

Mega Metagross is one of the most restricting Pokemon to teambuillding due to its excellent matchup versus many playstyles. The standard 4 attacks set is destructive against balance and offense, just with dual stabs and hammer arm alone, it has few switch ins, and it gets many switch ins by itself due to its great defensive typing and disgustingly good bulk. While offense has a decent number of ways to check it, Mega Metagross can just as easily run a Agility set to mitigate that. The fact that it has a 20% chance to boost its attack without a separate setup move is really scary for teams to face. With its wide coverage movepool, you never really know what's coming your way - send in your slowbro, smacked by a grass knot. Send in your Landorus-T / Gliscor, flipped by an Ice Punch (or the former cleanly 2HKOed as shown above lol). While it does have a solid number of checks that are relatively obvious and that others have listed, it either has an easy way to get around them or they're quickly worn down by entry hazards / residual damage / etc.

I'm fairly undecided whether or not I think it is ban-worthy, it certainly deserves this suspect.

I'm just gonna c+p what I pasted in the other thread, 'cos it pretty much applies here:

How people can state Mega Metagross needs to go just baffles me. This is an EXCELLENT pokemon, but no more - yes, it is difficult to counter, but it has a number of checks and it has to use more than four slots to get through all of them. It also has no recovery, and suffers from the resurgance of spikes that has been seen recently.

At some point, we're just going to have to accept that the metagame has got more powerful, rather than move from suspect test to suspect test until we can finally say "stall is viable!!"

Stall is an incredible playstyle now, and has always been one of the most consistent when played well. If we were to hammer any 'mon now it might be MegaSableye; however I loathe this happening.

The problem we have now is that there are no OBVIOUS suspects. Everyone can see from the discussions in the other thread that people are 50/50, with more involved discussions going on about re-testing than bans. We're trying to find 'mons to ban for the sake of it more than anything else (this point is beautifully illustrated above in someone nominating Lando-T due to its 31% usage).

I see the meta now as pretty balanced, with nothing too strong that can't be handled. We have excellent pokemon that can define certain playstyles, but each has flaws that keep them on the right side of that broken line.

The only reason I can see to try and swing the banhammer at the minute is "to avoid the meta getting stale". I feel like a lot of people are just getting on the suspect happy bandwagon for the sake of it, due to nostalgia "for the good old days" before the power creep, instead of adjusting to and enjoying what we have, now that we've removed the obviously broken 'mons.

tl;dr I'm happy with where the meta's at right now.

I don't have the timeframe to get up to ladder requirements, so I know this won't count, but IMO MegaGross shouldn't suffer a ban.

There's 3 reasons why I believe so:

1. Despite the buff to its defensive stats, the amount of Ground & Fire types/coverage with those two types around the higher strata of OU still put enough of a dent in it to hurt it.

2. The loss of Clear Body DOES leave it susceptible to double-Intimidate; and

3. Sableye can still burn the heckles out of MegaGross.

Again, I know this won't count, but I'd like to get it off my chest.

I think that Metagross is unhealthy and broken for the current metagame.

1. Metagross has no hard counters, Thunder Punch hits Skarmory, Hammer Arm hits Ferrothorn, Zen Headbutt can 2HKO Rotom-W with rocks up. Obviously it suffers from 4MSS but my point is that it has the tools to kill things that would be considered "counters"

2. Metagross has ridiculous bulk which makes it very difficult to revenge kill. Scarf Pokemon such as Keldeo are generally too weak to revenge kill it which is leading to the disgusting amount of Scarf Landorus-T (Patolegend!) and thus leads to dumb metagame trends such as Scarf Gengar.

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 187-221 (62.1 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3. Metagross easily mega evolves. Access to Bullet Punch to revenge kill faster threats such as Mega Lopunny and the fact it can revenge kill almost everything not named Mega Charizard-X/Y, Garchomp, Excadrill or fast Landorus-T.

A combination of bulk, speed, and attack versatility deem me to believe that Mega Metagross is broken.

Personally, I'm not in favour of the ban. Mega-Gross has multiple good checks. Suicune and (Mega)Slowbro being excellent checks if Mega-Gross isn't running GT. If he is, Skarmory and Lando-T are a viable option. When using Lando you have to make sure that Metagross is already Mega evolved, otherwise Intimidate isn't going to work, and you will have a much harder time. Also Rotom-W works well against Mega-Gross. It can take hits fairly well and cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. Ferrothorn also does a great job at walling it, but only if it isn't running HammerArm.

As everybody here will sure say, Mega Metagross is a gigantic powerhouse, there's no doubts about that, I mean, with the right coverage, it can take care of most of the physical walls that the metagame currently has, not even saying how it can wreck offensive teams that are not ready for it.

However, I don't know if I feel that with megagross being gone the meta would get better, I mean, the fairy spam would start to control everything again imo, being clefable, m-gardevoir etc. We'd probably start seeing some team bases from late-xy coming back to live (not even mentioning that now m-altaria is a thing).

Anyway, I will try to make up my mind since I'm still not sure which side I'm going to take on this

On the subject of fairy spam; I... don't see how that's true? Just looking at usage stats, Ferrothorn and Heatran are incredibly common which I can assure you has nothing to do with trying to beat Metagross. Hell without Metagross those two would have more breathing room to get in and check/counter fairies. Other common steel-types are starting to come into play as well like Scizor - extremely underrated non-mega atm - and Jirachi, so I wouldn't start fearing fairies all of a sudden.
Regardless, if this is your reason for not wanting to ban it, keep in mind that this is a Broken Checking Broken argument and is not legitimate.

The issue with Mega Metagross in the current metagame is that it does not only hit an offensive benchmark that is nearly unmatched in OU, but also has speed, coverage and bulk that puts it over wallbreakers like Kyurem-Black and Mega Heracross. Metagross limits teambuilding for offensive teams, as almost no offensive pokemon can safely switch in and beat it, so many teams either need a lot of bulk (what is leaning towards balance) or a lot of speed to keep Metagross in control. The wallbreaking set has very limited switchins like Hippowdon, Victini, Slowbro and Bronzong (lol) which are not only beaten by the right coverage moves, but also limits teambuilding to a point where running full offense gives you a big disadvantage against Mega Meta. While the prediction argument can be used for both the metagross player and the opponent, the metagross player is in an advantage because metagross' bulk and speed makes it hard to beat even if you can switch in safely. Also, there is the Agility/RP set which stops potential switchins like Talonflame, Victini, Starmie and Mega Manectric, while this set is definitely not the best set, it is still one of the best set-up sweepers in the metagame. I'm leaning towards a ban.

mauritsfb said:

Personally, I'm not in favour of the ban. Mega-Gross has multiple good checks. Suicune and (Mega)Slowbro being excellent checks if Mega-Gross isn't running GT. If he is, Skarmory and Lando-T are a viable option. When using Lando you have to make sure that Metagross is already Mega evolved, otherwise Intimidate isn't going to work, and you will have a much harder time. Also Rotom-W works well against Mega-Gross. It can take hits fairly well and cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. Ferrothorn also does a great job at walling it, but only if it isn't running HammerArm.

Click to expand...

Let me remind you that skarmory can switch in but do nothing and Defensive Lando t is outsped and metagross has a tough claws boosted ice punch.

Megagross suspect i well deserved.

Great bulk, amazing speed tier, way too strong even without boosting and life orb...it's just a pain in the ass. Yeah it's checked by some things like Slowbro or Ferrothorn, but you can't play that in Offense. It's really cockblocking your teambuilding if you are trying to make an offense since he just has everything to piss you off, and the fact that you have to restrain your teambuilding to deal with it makes it ban-worthy, a ban should go in the way of a metagame who gives more freedom to a player trying to build. I think the result will be close, but i think that banning him is a good thing.

I'm looking forward to playing on the suspect ladder. I don't currently think it should be banned but there are definitely good arguments that it should go and I do believe it absolutely deserves this test. If the metagame appears to be far healthier without it then I may change my mind.

If anything pushes it over the top I would say it's Grass Knot. I've had this argument with people on PS plenty and I really believe that this is a superior coverage move to Ice Punch. Ice Punch lets you break past Lando-T, Gliscor, Garchomp and Dragonite far more easily but most of those take a fat chunk from Meteor Mash on a switch-in anyway, and both Lando and Garchomp lack reliable recovery. Grass Knot lets you beat stuff like Slowbro, Hippowdon, Quagsire and Rhyperior while also assuring KOs on things like Mamoswine and Sharpedo without having to risk a miss. The difference here is you can still wear down the checks that Ice Punch hits without having Ice Punch (Gliscor is usually SpDef these days and Dragonite almost never runs Bulk + Roost), but Slowbro and Hippo can easily heal up and wall you without GK.

Another interesting thing about GK is that even though it doesn't get help from Meteor Mash boosts, it's generally powerful enough to take out what it needs to anyway and it isn't effected by intimidate.

Not saying Ice Punch and Bullet Punch variants are not also dangerous but they certainly have more switch-ins. Agility is a different beast because you're forced to wall it since pretty much nothing can revenge kill.

Leodamin said:

As everybody here will sure say, Mega Metagross is a gigantic powerhouse, there's no doubts about that, I mean, with the right coverage, it can take care of most of the physical walls that the metagame currently has, not even saying how it can wreck offensive teams that are not ready for it.

However, I don't know if I feel that with megagross being gone the meta would get better, I mean, the fairy spam would start to control everything again imo, being clefable, m-gardevoir etc. We'd probably start seeing some team bases from late-xy coming back to live (not even mentioning that now m-altaria is a thing).

Anyway, I will try to make up my mind since I'm still not sure which side I'm going to take on this

Click to expand...

That is not a valid argument, especially without data. Making another thing over centralized is not a valid argument. We are talking about the function of metagross alone, which has no solid checks. The faries have more checks by the way. trying not to be a mini mod but farie OPness is not part of this thread. Tier shifts happen. End of story.

Well, Megagross has surely a lot of pros - amazing stats, good coverage, clearbody pre-evo, TClaws ecc -
as Finchinator said its really cool cuz it can support the rest of the team (e.g. Keldeo w/pursuiting latwins) while cleaning with its great stabs + tclaws

It's not that kind of "broken mon" that you watch and say "Uber!" at first sight cuz it crush again some threats, like Scizor, Skarmory, Rotom-W, and depending of moveset, Suicune, Slowbro, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Heatran, Hippowdon, Bulky Starmie. Also things like Bisharp, maybe Talonflame, Garchomp, Excadrill under sand, Mega Mane, MegaGyara can threat Megagross in offensive teams, so it isn't an issue for its sole qualities. I can reason a ban for it just in order to "fix" the metagame, like Aegislash in XY (tho Aegi was way much broken), to start having a tier less dependant by matchups. Personally I don't see it as the main problem of current metagame so I will go with No ban as now, but I'm flexible so I can change my mind, depending on my matches on ladder (if I will have enough time to get reqs)
One of things that make me think it shouldnt be banned as now also is that its one of the few really good answers to fairy mons

At this time, I think I'm in favor of banning Metagrossite. The main problem with it is that not only is it hard to counter, but it is also incredibly hard to check - just by switching up one move, Metagross completely changes what beats it. For example, Mega Slowbro is normally a great counter to Mega Metagross, resisting Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, and Hammer Arm, but if it decides to run Grass Knot?

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's bulk is also ridiculous, especially on the physical side, making it at times hard to even revenge kill. Here's a calc from OU's current #1 revenge killer, Scarf Lando-T:

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That is a 100 base power STAB Super Effective move coming from a Pokemon with a maximally invested base 145 Attack, and it doesn't even have a CHANCE to OHKO. Even after Stealth Rock taken into account, it is still less than a one in three chance you will OHKO. Meanwhile, even after Intimidate, Metagross can deal some serious damage back, again, just by switching up its movelist:

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 252-300 (78.9 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah, this thing is strong, fast, bulky, and has ways of reducing almost all its counters into checks, and makes its checks situational at best. It's not the most broken thing to have ever graced OU, but at this time I still believe that it is too much for the OU metagame.

I posted in the post-Greninja suspect discussion thread that I wasn't sure if this thing was broken or not. Now, though, I'm pretty damn convinced it's borked.

Let's just look at a few things:

1) Very few offensive answers; most of its checks are defensively-oriented
2) Obscenely high Defense for an offensively-oriented Pokemon
3) Restricts teambuilding

So, of course, let's look at the first point. There really aren't many offensive answers to this thing. Outside of really strong Sucker Punches (Uhh.... Bisharp, Bisharp, and maybe Bisharp too) and Landorus-T (Ice Punch says hi) you really can't do much to this thing on offense. Of course, other playstyles have plenty of things to use to beat Megagross, but if you guess the move wrong, you're fucked. Send out your Slowbro to counter? It just Grass Knotted you. Thought Gliscor or Landorus-T were safe? It just Ice Punched you. Because of this, even a team prepared for Mega Metagross can still lose to it depending on its set, and I find myself having to run Reflect Type on Mega Latias on my Mega Latias team just to beat it.

Of course, another point is that its Defense is obscenely high for an offensive Pokemon. This thing takes hits for days, and this makes it difficult to revenge kill. Even those strong Sucker Punches from Bisharp or something don't do the trick if Metagross is healthy, which makes Agility sets damn near impossible for offensive teams to handle, and it's not like offense runs much that can take a hit. Even if you run both Bisharp and Landorus-T on every offensive team (your best bet) it might just be running just the right move to fuck you up. Maybe it's All-Out Attacker and has both EQ and Ice Punch to screw over both Bisharp and Landorus-T.

All of this means Megagross restricts teambuilding. Occupying two whole teamslots on offense solely to beating Mega Metagross is ridiculous (and it isn't even reliable.) This reminds me a lot of Mega Salamence - of course, M-Salamence was way more broken, but let me explain. Both of them had a combination of speed, bulk, and power that pushed them over the top. Metagross also has multiple options that allow it to get past would-be counters like Slowbro and Gliscor, like how Mega Salamence could run a mixed set to beat 'mons that beat the DD set. This means that the meta revolves around Meta, and even teams that are prepared to beat Mega Metagross can still lose if Mega Metagross packs a surprise Grass Knot or something.

Ban

I'm perfectly alright with a mon having 0 offensive counters, but mega meta comes very close to having 0 offensive checks, and that's very bad, especially when the mon in question does not require a turn to setup. He has the crucial combination of speed and power that makes him difficult to kill for fast mons (and impossible with priority abusers), while at the same time puts the hurt on slower offensive mons.

It's one thing for something like DD zard-x to have virtually no offensive checks because it needs a turn to setup, and offensive players can take advantage of that. When you make a mon that's almost as difficult to revenge kill not require that turn of setup though, that can spell doom for an offensive team.

My initial stance is pro-ban.

It's about time this monster got put up to the chopping block! The meta is kinda getting matchup reliant due to how well Mmeta fares against all play styles plus how much it restricts teambuilding. While meta does indeed suffer 4mss it again can use it to the metagross users advantage as you never know if your gliscor or slowbro will be safe switching in to take on this beast. Imo the speed is what really puts it over the edge. Something with this much power, bulk, and speed is incredibly hard to check. Then you have to think about the aforementioned guessing games to further put incredible amounts of pressure on the opponent which severely impact the outcome of many games. I've already seen hippos and other would be counters lured in and anhilated during spl games which easily turns the tables in these big games. So basically Mega Metagross is incredibly powerful, fast, and bulky, is incredibly hard to check/counter, and puts a massive strain on teambuilding so imo it should be banned.