CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 1 - Concept Poll

Status
Not open for further replies.

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Its time now to choose a direction for this project, so we'll be voting as a community on which concept we'd like to pursue for CAP 20. Make sure to read through each concept thoroughly; it is imperative that you understand what you're voting for here. Our slate of three concepts was chosen by our Topic Leader, nyttyn, from the Concept Discussion thread.

This will be a Preferential Block Vote (PBV) (a form of Instant Runoff Voting which re-runs the counting, each time removing the previously top-ranked candidate in order to determine the 2nd most preferred, 3rd most preferred, etc.), the details of which are outlined here and here. This is a ranked vote: order does matter! You can upvote your favorites and downvote your least favourites. You may choose to rank as many or as few options as you like, but we encourage you to rank as many as possible to ensure your preferences are taken into account.

Bold your votes and nothing else! A typical vote might look like the following:

Most Preferred
Second Most Preferred
Third Most Preferred


Any comments that the voter has would go below the votes in non-bold text. Bold text is used to determine what the user's votes are, so none of the supplementary text should be in bold.
CAP uses automated scripts to count votes. For this reason, it is very important for all ballots to be submitted correctly. If you do not compose a legal ballot, your post will be subject to moderation.
  • The scripts count bold words in ballots, so do NOT bold anything in your ballot other than the options you are voting for.
  • Do NOT put any formatting other than bold in your post.
  • Only one option per line.
  • Spelling of options must be EXACTLY correct and must match the spelling listed above.
  • Capitalization and spaces are ignored by the vote counting scripts, but you probably should not depend on it.
Composing a proper ballot is easy. Enter BBCode Edit Mode (the wrench in the upper right corner). Copy/paste the options directly from the OP to your ballot as plain unbolded text. Delete and/or rearrange the options to suit your preference and the poll type. Bold your vote text using bold tags or re-enter rich text mode, highlight your vote and click B. Spelling or formatting errors may spoil your ballot, so be careful!

Please post only your votes in this thread. Do not respond to other posts, or your posts will be moderated and you may be warned. You are allowed to say whatever you like in relation to your vote at the bottom of your post, but please do not look to begin a discussion. Keep those comments to #cap on IRC.

IMPORTANT: When voting, use only the name of the concept! The list of possible votes include:

The Cowardly Lion
Use the Boost to Get Through!
Choiced Choice Scarf​

This poll will be open for 24 hours. The concept submissions are quoted below.

Name: The Cowardly Lion

General Description: A Pokémon that can utilize a Substitute to its maximum use and capacity, while still being a threat.

Justification: Most Substitute users are stallers, cowering behind a Substitute, inflicting status conditions, and healing at opportune moments. There is, of course, the uncommon standout like Aegislash, but, of course, it was banned to Ubers. We've never seen a Pokémon yet completely based around the Substitute, and I think it would be great to toy with the idea.

Questions to be Answered:
  • How can a Pokémon easily maintain a Substitute?
  • How can a Pokémon be guaranteed a chance to even put up a Substitute?
  • What are the best ways a Pokémon can regain its lost health in a Substitute, while still being a viable sweeper?
  • Does a Pokémon's inability to be affected by status conditions while behind a Substitute greatly affect the momentum of the battle?
  • Is the turn needed to put up a Substitute in the first place too risky, or does the opponent a free turn to set up?
Explanation: What happened to Substitute usage in OU? We had SubLoom and SubGar for a while, but these both phased out with the arrival of new mons. To be completely honest, I've forgotten that Breloom was even IN OU since the new entries into the Dex. It's a great concept: Lose 1/4 of your health to be completely impervious to attacks until an equivalent of the 25% is depleted by the opposing mon's moves. In that time, the one behind the Sub can easily recover the lost health with the right set. The problem is, all of these sets so far (or at least 80% of them) involve recovering through status moves, such as Soft-Boiled. What we really haven't seen yet is a Substitute Abuser, one who can heal its depleted health by the means of moves such as (these are just examples) Giga Drain or Drain Punch. I believe that this would be a great and interesting addition to the meta, for it explores a vein of strategy we haven't really seen yet. Basically, I'd like to whip out a Max Revive and give it to the move Substitute, as it is not only a great move but deserving of a slot in a good Pokémon's moveset.
Name: Use the Boost to Get Through!

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

Justification: In the early days of Pokemon X and Y, we experienced the first Pokemon that could (viably) boost and sweep from either the physical or special side: Mega Lucario. While it was clear his unpredictability could have a devastating effect (having your Chansey eat a Close Combat, Will-O-Wisping on the Nasty Plot, etc.) the true extent to which this could make a Pokemon better was masked by the fact that Lucario's sets were both already amazing. The purpose of this concept would therefore be to explore the impact of unpredictability in sweepers by creating a Pokemon that can run several boosting sets, none of which are dominant in their own right, but that when combined can result in an extremely dangerous threat.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • Is there a limit to how much unpredictability can make a Pokemon better? Can it make a decent Pokemon great? Or can it only make them usable?
  • How does being unpredictable with boosting options compare to other forms of unpredictability (such as uncommon coverage moves or trying to speed creep certain threats)? Is unpredictability in sweepers inherently more dangerous because of how easily they can win a game?
  • For a Pokemon that is already unpredictable, will we see the use of strange coverage moves (as many sweepers tend to run) or will it tend to stick to standard sets because it already has the element of surprise?
  • Which boosting moves are distinct enough to completely change a Pokemon's checks/counters? Are Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Agility the only ones that can fit this concept? Or is there a way to incorporate moves such as Dragon Dance without giving the Pokemon "the best of both worlds".
  • How effective will double boosting sets be on this Pokemon? Will the ability to "pick your counters" on a Pokemon already designed to bypass its counters be too good? Or can it be designed so that the loss of coverage will still leave it with several checks and counters on any set?
  • To what extent will teams have to prepare for this Pokemon? Will they have to pack several checks/counters like for M-Lucario? Or will they be able to just use a standard team so long as they can identify the set early?
Explanation: One aspect of OU that seems to be omnipresent is unpredictability. And so it should come as no surprise that many of the proposed concepts (such as One Hit Wonder and Distribution Revolution by nyttyn and trc respectively) have tried to tackle this issue. The purpose of this concept is to take a slightly different angle and explore unpredictability in a sweeper specifically. What makes boosting sweepers unique from other Pokemon is that if you lose a specific check or give them one too many free turns, they can single-handedly win a game. My vision for this Pokemon is one that could be extremely deadly if mishandled, but that if you can identify its set early on, a standard team should be able to handle it. That way we could avoid some of the complications Lucario presented, and instead focus on how deadly unpredictable boosting really is.
Name: Choiced Choice Scarf

Description: A Pokemon that is a very effective user of a Choice Scarf in the current metagame, and and that is defined by its usage of Choice Scarf.

Justification: With the rise of priority and naturally fast pokemon in XY and ORAS, Choice Scarf, once one of the best items in the game, is now much less commonly seen. There is much less reason to use, for example, one of BW's most common Scarfers, Scarf Keldeo, when you could have a powerful priority user or fast Pokemon with the ability to change moves instead. This project would allow us to explore one of the biggest changes in the new metagame.

Questions To Be Answered:
-How has the importance of speed changed in Gen 6?
-What aspects of a Pokemon will make it an ideal user of a choice item, particularly scarf?
-What qualities would make a Pokemon willing to sacrifice its ability to change moves for extra speed?
-How successful can a Pokemon be when its best set is known and predictable?
-Since Choice Scarf is seemingly less useful of an item, is it even possible to make an OU-viable Pokemon who can do no better than Choice Scarf?
-How mediocre must the Pokemon's other options be to result in Choice Scarf's preeminence?

Explanation:
In Generation 5, a Choice Scarf user was mandatory on every offensive team. Even some stall teams found a team slot to fit a scarfer in. Choice Scarf was by far the best way to revenge kill in BW, as there was far less priority and very few pokemon broke the 110 speed tier. However, this has all gone out the window in Generation 6. Priority is everywhere, with new additions such as Talonflame, Mega Scizor, and Mega Lopunny combined with the newfound power of old abusers like Bisharp and Azumarill. There are also many new additions with incredibly high speed, such as Hawlucha, Mega Manectric, and Mega Aerodactyl. Even Thundurus-I has joined in the revenge killing frenzy with its priority Thunder Wave allowing it to ruin almost every setup sweeper. With all these options, there is virtually no reason to use a choice scarfer today. This project would allow us to explore what qualities would make a Choice Scarf user equally or more desirable than any of these, and also to gain a new understanding of the item itself. Given the extreme importance of revenge killing, I think that these would all be very useful subjects to explore.

The second qualification in the description - that the Pokemon be defined by Choice Scarf - is there to make sure the CAP will not just be a generally good pokemon that can use a Choice Scarf well (Keldeo, Landorus-T), but a Pokemon that is good only with scarf and otherwise mediocre. Think Genesect in very early B2W2 before people started using Rock Polish, but less broken obviously.

I understand that there could be some concern about how focused my concept is on studying a single item. My idea was that, through studying Choice Scarf, we could gain understanding of not just the item itself, but of a lot of other changes that have come with XY - particularly the greater emphasis on momentum and the change in speed's importance in OU. This concept would let us see at what point it is optimal to potentially risk momentum in order to achieve greater speed, what changes in the importance of speed have occurred (I can't make this much more specific because I'm not sure what the answer is), and what other Pokemon a Choice Scarfer would be competing for a teamslot with. I feel that these are great opportunities to learn about the metagame.

This poll will be open for 24 hours, so make sure to get your votes in!

CAP 20 so far:

Leadership Team:
nyttyn - Topic Leader
Ununhexium - Typing
trc - Ability
HeaLnDeaL - Stats
wh0sy0urpapa - Movepool​
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
The Cowardly Lion
Choiced Choice Scarf


booster 1 sounds pretty boring+im positive we'd break it
 

The Avalanches

pokemon tcg
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Use The Boost to Get Through!
The Cowardly Lion

UTBTGT is the concept I like best, I would love for this CAP to be unpredictable to face.
 

Ignus

Copying deli meat to hard drive
The Cowardly Lion
Use The Boost to Get Through!
Choiced Choice Scarf
 
Use The Boost to Get Through!
Choiced Choice Scarf
The Cowardly Lion

Kinda sad it isn't called use the boost to get thru
 
Last edited:

tehy

Banned deucer.
Use the Boost to Get Through!
The Cowardly Lion


Choiced Scarf sounds fairly boring; i've definitely gone up against mons, mostly in B/W to be fair, that were defined by scarf and generally ran scarf. they did have other OK sets but who are we fooling, this mon will likely be o.k. with an LO or choice item too
 

ganj4lF

Nobody is safe from the power of science!
is a Team Rater Alumnus
The Cowardly Lion
Choiced Choice Scarf
Use the Boost to Get Through!
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
The Cowardly Lion

This is the only one of the three with any potential, IMO, and it has alot of it. Setup sweepers with moves like Shell Smash need to have mediocre stats to start with, else they are broken. Swords Dance and Nasty Plot are better and are the more common setup moves in OU (not so sure about Nasty Plot's popularity TBH) but it seems like the concept calls for Shell Smash, which would then mean giving the Pokémon mediocre stats to prevent it being overpowered after only one smash, which would then limit the viability of other sets.

Choiced choice scarf has been done before by GF and generations gone by, and it is pretty much impossible to define a Pokémon by Choice Scarf thanks to the nature of the item. Life Orb and probably other choice items will also be viable and popular on the Pokémon, no doubt about it.

However, The Cowardly Lion is an extremely interesting concept with multiple ways in which we can take it thanks to the large amount of effects it has. It's really the only one with a bright future, since I feel the concept would have to be reworked during the process of making the other two.

Haven't had time to read the threads of these concepts though, and this is my first CAP project, so forgive me if I'm spouting shit lol. Just putting down my thoughts for now.
 
The Cowardly Lion
Choiced Choice Scarf
Use the Boost to Get Through!


I feel the cowardly lion is really interesting pick, and should be great when used. I feel the "Use the Boost to Get Through!" is probably ending up as another aurumoth/more powerful greninja, while the choiced choice scarf is pretty interesting.
 
Use the Boost to Get Through!
The Cowardly Lion
Choiced Choice Scarf


UtBtGT could be easily broken, but sounds awsome. Not much between the last two.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top