CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 1 - Concept Discussion

Umm, hello. Gonna be frank here: we've never had a concept discussion where we weren't submitting concepts, so please work with us as we attempt something new and exciting. Thanks to all of the submissions and work going on in the brand new Concept Workshop we've gathered a bunch of top-notch concepts for us to peruse and use for CAP 20. The purpose of this thread is to narrow down which concepts will be slated for the final, public polls. Make sure to listen to what our Topic Leader, nyttyn says at this stage. He's got a lot in mind, so pay attention!

This is where we discuss the general goal of the next Create-A-Pokemon project -- CAP 20. The Concept will be a guiding force throughout the ensuing project, to ensure the the final result is a cohesive competitive pokemon. Any discussions, suggestions, or submissions in later topics, that do not support the spirit of the Concept, will be moderated by the moderators.

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For those interested, here's the exact conclusion from our Policy Review Committee (found here):

Public participation in the CAP project will begin with a Concept Discussion.
The Topic Leader will select several Approved Concepts from the Concept Workshop that are "Under Consideration" for possible inclusion in the slate for the Concept Poll. The purpose of the Concept Discussion is to help the Topic Leader decide on the final slate. The Concept Discussion should be moderated with the following in mind:

• Only the Concepts listed by the Topic Leader should be discussed in the Concept Discussion. New Concepts are not allowed, nor should people suggest or discuss other Approved Concepts from the Concept Workshop.
• The Concept Discussion is NOT a voting thread. All posts should make substantive commentary on the Concepts under consideration. Posts that amount to nothing more than "I like/do not like X, Y, and Z concepts" are not allowed.

The Topic Leader will select the final slate of Concepts for the Concept Poll.
Like all CAP steps, the TL should be observant of the intelligent community consensus when making decisions.

The community will vote to determine the winning Concept for each CAP creation project.
No different than the past. This is probably obvious to everyone, but just in case all this talk of "overhauling the Concept process" made anyone think we will not still have a democratic poll -- rest assured, the community WILL ultimately choose the Concept for each project.

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Please try to remember that we are simply pointing the project in a general direction. We are not trying to decide anything right now. We have several weeks of polls ahead of us where EVERYTHING about this Pokemon will be dissected, discussed, voted, and decided. The Concept is a very basic guide for the creation process. It is hard to provide solid concept descriptions without basically designing the entire Pokemon right off the bat. Submissions should be written and chosen very carefully, to avoid these problems.

CAP 20 so far:

Leadership Team:

Potential Concepts:

The Mediocre Mon

Use the Boost to Get Through!

Core Collapse (aka C-C-C-Core Breaker!)

Distribution Revolution

Choiced Choice Scarf

Sticky Web Support

Demon Jester

The Cowardly Lion

Welcome to CAP 20. I will be your Topic Leader, but consider me more of a guide than a ruler.

We all know last CAP didn't go so well, and CAP has been in somewhat of a recovery period. Some people even doubt we have the manpower or talent to make CAP 20 successful - I say fie on that. We can and will make this a fantastic project, and have a great time in the process.

I want people to take it easy this CAP, and to try to keep the nastiness held back. Bullying other users is completely unacceptable - if you have an issue with the quality of their posts, please, bring it up to a moderator, and it will be handled. But at the same time, this increased expectation of tolerance comes with an expectation of competence, and I fully expect people to hold themselves to a higher standard than they ever have before. Let us make this perfectly clear up front - you will be expected to do the research before you post. Moderation will be stricter this time around, rule breaking will be absolutely unacceptable, and I fully expect posters in the competitive sections of CAP 20 to understand what is competitive, and what is not, and what is currently relevant in the OU meta, and what is not. If you feel that you are unsure of your knowledge, by all means, feel free to watch, read, and ask questions on IRC (#CAP located at irc.synirc.net) or the Pokemon Showdown! room. Both myself and the CAP moderators as well as the Topic Leadership Team will be perfectly happy to assist you, and you are still perfectly free and encouraged to contribute to the sections you are comfortable with.

Now, onto Concept Discussion. The concept is the core piece of CAP, as we all know - it's what we base our entire concept around. This time around, we're handling things differently - users have been submitting concepts in the Concept Workshop for a month now, and I and the rest of the QC team have been analyzing, reviewing them, and either Accepting them or Declining them. Accepted concepts are the only ones that can be slated, and this forum is your chance to advocate for any of them. As of right now, my planned slate is Sticky Web Support, Core Collapse, The Mediocre Mon, and Choiced Choice Scarf, so keep that in mind when making your arguments. I've already gone over each and every concept in great depth, there's not too many right now, and there has already been a lot of recent discussion on them, so let's look at getting this wrapped up in 48 hours or so, with an extension being provided if need be.

As for my gimmick, I bring to you the gift of music. As we are debating the merit of various concepts, let us listen, and Argue For and Against. One of my favorite remixes, really - while it's a bit on the short side, it's very happy, upbeat, and that upbeat nature is a perfect start to CAP 20.


Now let CAP 20 begin, let's make it a good one.

Guess I'll get this started. I'm very happy to see Sticky Web Support on the tentative slate, as I think it's exactly the kind of concept that can get CAP back on track. It's focused to an extent that reminds me of what Malaconda's concept turned into, while at the same time playing with a mechanic that doesn't get much attention in OU. I'm a little concerned that Sticky Web might necessarily be ineffective when everyone and their mother is running it on the playtest ladder, but I think the answer to that is a creative playerbase that's willing to experiment with the CAP20 meta. Either way, we get insight on what happens when a viable setter exists, and we have clear and focused discussions on the way there. People always say that CAP is about the journey, and after the mixed up journeys we've recently had, I think one with clearer direction is the way to go this time.

Seriously, we get to mess with what is and isn't considered viable in the metagame, and still keep our concept firmly grounded in a specific idea. It's like having our cake and eating it too.

I'm also a huge fan of Sticky Web support; by and large, I feel that Sticky Web is a move with a huge amount of potential, and it's just been left behind to a greater extent due to its users simply being, well, not very good, and thus being relegated to suicide lead roles. I'm excited to see what happens when that's not the case (Well, i guess the CAP could be a suicide lead as well, but I feel like any mon we make will hopefully be good enough to not just be 'sash N webz').

Distribution Revolution sounds cool as well, it seems like a lot of fun to make and a mon that can cause a lot of guessing games, while covering whatever your team needs it to. Definitely brings in the need to scout it out a bit and potentially can be on a lot of teams. However, one concern I do have is how well the concept will age...for example, we'll probably have to base it around top-tier threats, but metagame shifts or suspect tests can leave them obsolete, and no matter what it'll probably change a lot when the next generation rolls around. Of course CAPs can change with time but this mon seems like it would do so most drastically; because it's based on a delicate balance, any shift of that balance can lead to it just being another Pokemon.

Mediocre Mon seems interesting, I don't know. I guess my main issue with it is that, for example, in the concept thread Deck Knight posted a few examples of OU mediocre mons, and many of them just have really good abilities / movesets / typings or even all three. So firstly, that brings up the question of 'what even is mediocre'? And i don't know if it's a 'CAP will answer it!' kind of question. I guess it's just mediocre stats, but I don't really consider mons with mediocre stats and good other things 'mediocre' overall, so what is that really meant to prove? It'd be a fun concept to work on, I won't deny that at all, but I just don't know how much we'd really learn from it.

Use the Boost to Get Through sounds like a cool idea as well, but there is the problem of making both of its boosting sets equally viable or so(ideally it'd have more, but at least 2 should be equally viable). I feel like this is a bit of Zard X / Y syndrome; in later XY i just assumed X on the ladder and was usually fine, very rarely getting my shit ruined by Y. To be fair that's a thing that gets remedied when you face good players, but ideally even the ladder would be fairly split on which is the best set, causing you to really roll the dice against this Pokemon. Also, we need to make sure it has no good counters to both (all?) sets without it being too good, which is a fairly fine line to walk-if i can just hard-wall you I don't need to think, but if i can't it might be broken. Honestly, what I foresee is at least 2 boosting sets, with neither being that good but the uncertainty making them good; that said it could be a bit inconsistent at times as a lucky guess can make it useless, making it kinda luck-based, but still, this can teach us if true unpredictability with a setup sweeper (as in, even-split and not just 10% of the time i get rekt a bit) is that helpful. (For best results, i'd like to see 3 sets viable and about even split ofc.)

Core Collapse, uh, i used to use Mew and Sable for that, i think Gastro can do that too if anyone uses its ass, Latios is pretty o.k. at it, now that i think about it rotom-c looks like a fun idea to break the pair, defensive megaalt can kinda do that, do you get my point here? If this mon does come out, it really needs to take advantage of both in such a way as to make the core flat-out unviable because it places 2 mons that our CAP makes into its bitches, but how in the bloody hell do you do that? I remember in the thread, i mean, Rotom-w has that wicked STAB with volt switch in the bargain + Will-o-wisp, Lando-T has strongass EQ, Knock, Stone Edge, U-turn, guhh. What even lols at both of them? And just switching into 1 and beating the other isn't enough to make the core unviable; you can't even really gain momentum on them since they can just VoltTurn out, unless we make our CAP a Ground-type that beats rotom-w (difficult to say the least) or slap on Lightningrod i don't see it really. (Though that does give me an idea for the typing and offensive orientation, i guess.)

Idk what The Cowardly Lion even means. I guess that's what CAP is meant to answer? I think only the wizard of oz can figure it out... we just aren't a good enough substitute for him. /huee, but seriously I have about zero interest in 'abuse Sub to the max'. Probably just some bulky offense mon, but it'll need passive healing or it won't be bulky enough real soon, and it'd need to be fairly bulky+good typing to maintain sub against a lot of stuff, especially if the concept telegraphs your sub from a mile away. Now that i've written all this my interest is a bit up, but meh. One of the weaker concepts, i do see how it'd turn out good but that's almost the problem, i.e. that i can see it from here and only see that.

The Demon Jester really deserves all of that sentiment above...REALLY what does that mean? Underhanded tricks? I guess that means, idk, Encore, maybe Torment even though that kind of sucks (I'm fairly sure you can't abuse Encore + Torment together). Feel like this only works with Prankster, what's a dirty trick that isn't a non-attacking move? Sky Drop is the closest I can think of.
...Now that i think, some fun stuff with serene grace can be done-not just flinching, although that will probably happen (I swear that's not all I have in mind). Never mind, I have a few delicious ideas in mind, let's get this show on the road. I guess.

Screw the last two, Choiced Choice Scarf sounds like the least interesting TBH. I guess I can't remember that much that's specific, but for the longest time Rotom-W was defined for the most part as a scarfer-it had other O.K. sets, but i'm sure this mon will too; chances are that unless you really, really pare it down, it'll be O.K. at other stuff. Am i wrong on this remembrance? Lando-I was also defined by its scarferness believe it or not, basically in BW1 it was the scarf lando-T of now, without Knock Off and usually packing HP ice but still very similar. Not all that sure what this will teach us, i guess it can also be o.k. but i am least thrilled about this, if it was kicked off the ballot i'd be... O.K.A.Y. with that.

Changed my mind on a few, guess i really tossed aside my skepticism. Excited for a lot of these now.

Hmm....

Oh man, lots of good concepts. Of the ones approved, I want to talk on Distribution Revolution. This seems to be a very broad concept, one that can fill multiple roles. However, I'm worried the community might get overloaded with ideas for this big of a concept, ala Auromoth, and that CAP20 would have too much tools in its hands. Perhaps it won't necessarily fail, but it could end up stupidly strong. It also kind of reminds me of Krillowatt, with his crazy movepool and Magic Guard loophole that transformed him from a situational counter to a Life Orb sweeper.

That said, I think move specific concepts (Use The Boost, Sticky Web Support, maybe Cowardly Lion) might be the way to go for a simple, yet not heavily explored concept. Those remind me of Cawmodore, he was a pretty big success and is one of the strongest CAPs to date, and I think that's because we focused on one single, powerful, underused move.

Excellent opening post! I agree; this project is about getting CAP back on its feet, so it makes sense to go with a grounded, easily definable concept. One of the reasons that CAP revamped its concept process is because of the past few concepts not being up to snuff. The past two concepts, both heavily criticized, involved exploring the role of fainting in the OU metagame and building a core out of thin air. While both had the potential to be successful, we put ourselves behind the eight ball by attempting extremely ambitious projects. Meanwhile, a concept that essentially said "Give a Pokemon Sketch" turned into arguably the most enjoyable process and product of the past two generations. Therefore, we should go with a concept that if someone who had not been following the project read, they'd know exactly what we were trying to do.

The two concepts that best fulfill those criteria are Sticky Web Support and Use The Boost To Get Through!. I've raved about the former for a while now (you'll note I was the one who submitted it) because as long as we create a balanced Pokemon we're guaranteed to learn something about the metagame. Maybe we'll learn that any metagame with a viable Sticky Web user will be focused around Sticky Web offense. Maybe we'll learn that since OU has so many Levitators, Flying-Types, and Defoggers that Sticky Web just can't cut it. Ideally, we'll carve out a new offensive playstyle that doesn't usurp an existing one. Sticky Web Support might not be a great concept for a playtest because everyone will be trying to counter it, but it's a great concept to discuss and fits extremely well into the rest of the CAP process.

Use The Boost to Get Through! is also simple and enjoyable. It's set up perfectly for the CAP process too. During Concept Assessment we can determine what we want to boost with, during Threats Discussion we can decide what we want each set to lose to, and the rest of the process would be spent filling in the blanks. While there are plenty of places to go wrong (we'd need to toe the line between broken and underpowered), there are also a million different ways to succeed with this concept. Not counting Aurumoth (which had its own problems), CAP hasn't really built that many sweepers in the last two generations. It'd be fun drawing up a Pokemon that focuses on just beating other Pokemon rather than exploring an "aspect" of the metagame or trying to reshape the metagame.

The Mediocre Mon looks pretty promising as far as slating is concerned. It's restrictive enough that we won't go massively overboard, but there are enough options open that discussion won't get railroaded. Further, we have enough examples of OU Pokemon with at least one mediocre aspect that we can build and learn from.

Use a Boost to get Through! could also probably work. My only concern about it is that putting too many boosting options on one Pokemon is going to make it unfocused, but it seems this is an easy problem to avoid, so this slate doesn't seem awful.

I'm also all for Core Collapse as a concept with the new alterations. There's enough we can learn about that core and possibly cores in general that the concept can be justified.

Distribution Revolution is an interesting concept to be sure, but I don't really see why we would need a CAP to answer any of those questioins. It seems that at most it would take an Excel Document, the smogon OU dex, and about 3 hours to answer a solid majority of these questions. Personally find this a disagreeable topic. We could do it, but it seems a bit silly to use a CAP to solve a problem that could easily be solved without a CAP.

Choiced Choice Scarf basically sound to me like Kitsunoh without Defog, Rotom-W without Will-O-Wisp, or Gardevoir without the absurd Mega-Evolution. I'm not sure where this project could really surprise us. It seems a bit to copy-paste for my tastes. Can't say I'm a fan.

I've really tried my hardest to get behind Demon Jester as a concept. But this is pretty much the Einherjar of this block of concepts. It means so many different things to so many different people that it effectively means nothing at all. Even among the people that support it, there really isn't much consensus as to how a concept like this could work. Of the concepts slated, this is probably the weakest.

The Cowardly Lion seem pretty implementable to me. At base, there are plenty of options to go from if we want that to work. We could go with the Vaporeon route, where we pass a hideously bloated Substitute along with one or two buffs to another monster. We could go the sub-toxic Breloom route, where we aim to reclaim every bit a damage we payed into the substitute each turn. We could go for a pokemon that kills users of Sound-utilizing moves while setting up a sweep like in the good old days of sub. This seems like a perfectly workable concept.

I personally don't like Sticky Web Support as a concept, seeing how few pokemon in the format is actually impacted by it, how many pokemon profit from it, and how difficult the Web is to maintain on the field. However, I've seem some decent arguments for it. Even though I'm not a fan, this seems reasonably slateable.

Awesome! Really looking forward to this CAP, got a great team of people leading us.

I have to echo what DLC said, this project could do with a tangible concept with a clear objective in order to revive confidence in the CAP project as a whole. It allows for a greater chance of retaining new participants if the end goal is relatively simple.

So with that said I'm seconding Nyttyn's current planned slate of Sticky Web Support, Core Collapse and Choiced Choice Scarf. As much as I like the Mediocre Mon, right now it doesn't have a clear defined goal to work towards. There's always the chance that the direction we choose could be quite ambiguous, which is something we need to steer away from this time.

I'm gonna throw support out to the following concepts

Use The Boost to Get Through is a good concept in my opinion as it has a clear and defined goal of creating a pokemon with 2 sets which include differing boosting moves. It's a simple end goal, but there's a lot we can learn from this concept.
-What made Mega-Lucario a successful pokemon with two separate boosting sets but not Infernape?
-Unpredictability and Bluffing in OU. If neither set is stands out as the supreme option, how will this impact the way people play (against) this mon?
The playtest won't be super predictable which is a plus.

The Cowardly Lion fills in my personal criteria for having a simple goal and so I wouldn't consider it a bad choice. Having said that I actually don't like this concept too much. There are many successful and frequent sub users in OU this gen. It would be pointless for me to list them all, because it'd be pretty much half of the OU viable mons. Sub Gliscor and Sub Breloom are both less common than they were in previous generations I believe, and every pokemon that uses sub usually has a more effective/desirable set to use. However, there really is no pokemon which is completely defined by substitute, and that's pretty much why I'd support this making the slate.

I think Sticky Web Support would be the most logistical option to build a CAP off of. It is a strategy in OU that nobody has really touched on due to a number of issues, reigning from the setter and its dependence on team match-up. Seeing how Sticky Web would affect the metagame if it was a more viable playstyle would be interesting to watch.

Aside from that, Core Breaker would be interesting to delve in. Can such a common core be exploited so easily? This is surely an interesting concept to see how such common staples can be turned into liabilities.

Sticky Web Support is a concept that I don't think will be achievable in terms of making full Sticky Web a viable team archetype. Having played with Sticky Web fairly extensively in OU, UU, and RU, I would say the biggest difference between the tiers isn't the viability of the setters, but rather how many Pokemon are grounded or have priority. That said, I still think this concept would be a great learning project just to see what OU Sticky Web looks like. Will we see semi-Web teams, similar to how Trick Room often works in Doubles? Will a viable setter have to be viable in its own right, and Sticky Web is just an extra option it sometimes runs? While I don't think full Sticky Web can be executed, I do think that it would be possible to make a niche for Sticky Web in OU, and we would be responsible for properly identifying that niche and then building a Pokemon to fit it. Overall, I could see this being a great project and we could learn quite a bit about the OU metagame.

The Mediocre Mon is a concept I really don't like just because of how controversial the term "mediocre" is going to be on typings and abilities. While stats and movepool can be guided by some relatively quantitative metrics, typing and abilities are going to be a nightmare, with people arguing over defensive mediocrity (it has a lot of weaknesses! Yeah, but those are uncommon types. It resists a lot of common types. So its good. No, its mediocre!) but also offensive mediocrity (which will be a combination of coverage AND movepool). Abilities will be even worse, since based on the original thread for this topic, NOBODY agrees on what a mediocre ability is. While building this Pokemon would be fun, and I would love this idea if we had a magic list of mediocre typings and abilities, the fact is we don't, and I don't look forward to spending so much time arguing over the definition of mediocrity for an entire project.

Pretty much seconding entirely what DLC said. For this project to be successful, we need a concept that is clear and simple. In addition to the two that he highlighted, there are a couple of other concepts that appear to give us a clear direction.

Choiced Choice Scarf. There's little gray area in terms of our goal, which is a mon that is amazing with a Choice Scarf and mediocre with all other items. It gives us plenty of learning potential because we will be able to go in depth as to what makes a one-dimensional Pokemon still viable in the OU metagame, in addition to learning the importance of Speed tiers. There are many ways to go about this concept without it becoming too nebulous. Maybe we'll learn that messing with opposing speed tiers is critical in today's OU metagame. Or perhaps we'll learn that a Choice-locked, one dimensional set is too easily exploited to see major use. Even if this concept ends in "failure" in the literal sense, the discussion that would stem from Choiced Choice Scarf would guarantee that we learn something along the way. As Doug says, it's about the journey, not the destination, and there is a clear direction on what that journey is intended to be.

Core Collapse. Unlike the past two concepts, which both revolved around cores, we know what we will be dealing with from the very beginning. Nyttyn's revisions to the concept were totally on point, as his new proposal increases our learning potential that much more. Simply trying to beat the core straight-up would be uninspiring, as many mons exist now that can do it. It's the momentum that the Lando-T + Rotom-W core provides that makes it so threatening. Therefore, we will learn about the importance of momentum killing, and what can be done to prevent opponents from gaining ground. Momentum as a whole is fairly nebulous, but when we focus on dealing with this specific form of momentum, we already have a solid idea of what we will accomplish here.

guess i cant quit

the cowardly lion definitely seems like the best option to me. substitute is an interesting move in that almost every pokemon can get some sort of use out of it. we all know about subcm latias. one thing i've wanted to see is sub hp fire mdiancie. anything that can force a switch or has the bulk to take <25% from a common move that it can switch in on can get a lot of mileage out of sub. it's not so much that sub hasn't been explored as that it has so much room for optimization that makes it an interesting concept, and there's a lot of ways to take it. none of the other concepts really come close to how cool this one would be.

I'd like to see Sticky Web Support done. It's simple and would serve to teach us something about the meta. Even if the CAP "fails" to be a good mon, it still succeeded in teaching us if Sticky Webs can be done and is only "bad" because of the users, or if Sticky Web really can't be done well. It also brings me back to early XY when we first heard about this move - there was so much discussion and hype for it, and then only mediocremons got it, and all of them had to be suicide leads to work. I think what my favorite part of it is that it will attempt to bring something new to the table, which is usually a good thing.

The Cowardly Lion is also interesting, as it can take us to a couple of routes, plus Substitute is a fun move in general. Its a pretty simple concept, and would let us explore the move Substitute more. The only issues I have is that Gliscor and even Kyurem-B already fit this concept really well - Gliscor's SubToxic set is a nightmare while Kyurem(-B)'s SubRoost set or even just the Sub + 3 Attacks set is very potent. Not saying that the concept is dumb, just that there's already a lot of competition in the meta.

My favourite pick would be Use the Boost to Get Through. It's a concept which leaves us a lot of room to explore and I like the versatility it implies. It also allows us to stray from high base stats and generically good typings (I'm looking at you Plasmanta), since it will be a Pokémon bound to boost if it wants to be effective, and a mediocre typing might help in avoiding an overpowered CAP.

Speaking of mediocrity, The Mediocre Mon seems to be a popular concept, but I can't really see it working. I'm afraid we might get a Pokémon which is either too mediocre and as such has no place in OU, or something that is not mediocre at all. And even then, mediocrity is always relative. Levitate is a mediocre ability on Carnivine, a godly one on Rotom-H. Sap Sipper, one of the most common examples of a mediocre ability, would rock (no pun intended) on Rhyperior. Is Grass/Psychic a mediocre typing? Go ask Keldeo and Slowbro. All in all, it's just too vague and broad of a concept, and the only aspect which can be objectively mediocre are stats... and this will lead to another Clefable. Of course, I might be wrong here, but I still am not a fan of the concept.

Sticky Web Support is a concept I'd support. It's simple, the target is clearly cut, and it would explore an aspect of the metagame that everyone will agree has a lot to tell us. I believe that this concept holds a lot more than just a suicide lead to get the web up: we can make it so it deters spinners, we can give it Taunt to avoid Defog, we make it pair well with the slow but strong Pokémon that fit Sticky Web offense... so much to explore beside an Oblivious lead with a Focus Sash.

I find CAP does best with projects that have a narrow focus and ask a specific question. The more complex we go, the better discussions we /sometimes/ have, though this is not guaranteed. But on the heels of some less than successful projects, I think it's time to return to what we know CAP can do well: very specific objective with many potential paths.

The three concepts that seem preferable to me are therefore the ones that have the clearest goals:
Using Choice Scarf
Using Substitute
Using Sticky Web

Of these 3, Substitute and Scarf are the most widely applicable. Sticky Web will be a viable concept maybe at some point, but not in this metagame.

So I'd go
Choiced Choice Scarf or
The Cowardly Lion

All other options on this slate are more complex and less likely to be successful. This TLT team is less experienced than average (which is not a bad thing... I voted for most of them). But it means that imo we need to tone down the ambition. Something like Mediocre Mon or Demon Jester would be unlikely to be successful.

Looking at the tentative slate, the only one that I would like to see removed is The Mediocre Mon. This concept to me seems to difficult to execute in this transition stage, especially considering the divided attitudes that were produced in the discussion thread. Perhaps this could be successful later (although I still have my doubts due to my distaste for this concept in general), this is definitely not the time for such a "controversial" concept.

To replace it, I think that The Cowardly Lion is the best option to replace it. Substitute is and has been such an OU staple since its Gen 3 and we have even seen this concept executed in the past two generations, however through a variety of reasons (Bird Spam - to counter Breloom, Sound-based moves, Rise in better movesets for Gliscor) a Pokemon which can abuse Substitute in a variety of ways has not yet been explored (Besides this example of Kyurem in UU or Kyurem-B kind of in OU with Sub+3 Attacks and SubRoost). Everyone knows what Substitute does and what ways it can be abused, so a lack of fundamental understanding will be mitigated, and also since different Pokemon use the move in different ways, there won't be as much time wasted on trying to figure out new ways to abuse the move.

Use The Boost To Get Through! is probably my favourite concept up there just because it was the premise behind Swirlix in LC. You didn't know if it had a Cotton Guard + Calm Mind set or a Belly Drum set until it started setting up. Granted, it was busted because it had those + Unburden, but your opponent couldn't tell which one it would be and that created a situation where you had to preapre for both variants. As long as it isn't made to be over-powered and can still be usable, it'll turn out to be a fun addition to the CAP roster.

The other choice I'm really into is Sticky Web Support. OU doesn't exactly seem like a metagame where Sticky Web would be effective, but I would honestly like to see if there's a way to do it well. Said Sticky Webber is going to need tools to deter common anti-webbers, otherwise it would just be a waste of time.

So, with 12 hours remaining (give or take, we're probably going to close an hour early because of scheduling reasons), I'd like to comment on the current state of the Concept Slate. As of right now, I've seen really strong arguments for a more concrete, defined concept, as well as arguments for Use the Boost, Cowardly Lion, and Choiced Choice Scarf, so those three currently make up the tentative slate. Demon Jester, Distribution Revolution, and Mediocore Mon seem to bee too nebulous and undefined, and are lacking in fans, so they're probably not going to make the slate (unless they get some sort of amazing bugmanaicbob sized paragraph levels of convincing reasoning). Core Collapse will also more than likely not be making the slate, due to its lack of support and deals with a core that can, at the very worst, usually at least snatch momentum from its checks and counters, leading to a particularly difficult CAP.

The only concept that, thusly, is standing on the edge of being slated and not being slated is Sticky Web Support, which has some really strong arguments both for and against. As a result, I would like discussion to focus on the pros and cons of that concept. Namely, the concern that the concept may not be viable in this metagame - are there simply too many nongrounded mons and priority users? Please utilize usage stats in your arguments, as while there are certainly both good and bad mons in common usage, this is a concept that is very reliant upon grounded mons being common.

The Mediocre Mon looks pretty interesting, however is just seems way too vague and unspecific to build round. Still, it could work. It would be a challenge to make sure that, for example, none of the Pokemon's ascpects overshadows the other, that every single set has the same level of viability. I don't see this getting much support though, because it's still pretty directionless and honestly kinda boring.

I really like Use the Boost to get Through because we get to design a Pokemon which functions completely differently depending on which set it runs, and not just for its checks and counters. For example, it could be a fast sweeper designed to pummel offensive teams when going physical, or a slow wallbreaker which can decimate stall when special. Pretty much every stage is really crucial here and can be used to further the concept in multiple ways. Stats need to be well adjusted, with good enough bulk to set up, and not enough initial speed or power to be a major threat even without a boost. It's really important to get the typing right for this one, you want really good dual STAB coverage for one, but also a good enough defensive typing to give the Pokemon opportunities set up, and differing type coverage on each side of the spectrum. We can also play around with abilities, with one accommodating each attacking style. For example, if we pick a Fairy / Dark type, we could not give it any Fairy STAB at all, but give it Pixilate! But, if it chooses Pixilate-boosted Return, it misses out on Adaptability, which boosts Dark Pulse to insane levels! Sorry if I went a bit off-topic for this one, but I love this idea, it opens up so many possibilities without being too vague like Mediocre Mon. Definitely my favourite pick.

My big problem with Core Collapse is that, well, Landorus-T + Rotom-W isn't really a good core. Or at least, not a good defensive core. Both of these Pokemon beat the same threats, (Talonflame,Mega Pinsir, Excadrill, other Landorus-T) and both pretty much fold to any special attacker : Latios, Gardevoir, Clefable, Altaria, YZard, Kyurem-B, heck even Keldeo does pretty well. If we want to make a Pokemon that can break past both of these, we just give something a high SpA stat and good special movepool and voilà. The reason this core is used isn't because it's unbreakable, it's because of the double pivoting, usually slow pivoting from Rotom-W and fast pivoting from Scarf Landorus-T. No matter how powerful an attacker is, it won't be damaging either of these if they just VoltTurn out .You don't want to "break" this core, you want to stop it from wearing your team down to oblivion by spamming Volt Switch and U-Turn. You can't do this with an offensive Pokemon, who will just get worn down. Which wouldn't be so much "breaking" a core as outlasting it. I just can't see this working. If the goal was to break a core with actual good defensive synergy like Celebi+Heatran or Gliscor+Starmie this could definitely be interesting, so it's a shame this core was chosen imo.

Distribution Revolution reminds me of Mediocre Mon in the sense that it puts an emphasis on versatility and jack-of-all-tradesness, but it's also pretty vague. Still, I like it more because it's much more specific about what it's trying to accomplish. This will require a ton of work in the stat distribution stage, a lot of time will be spent fine tuning the EVs so as to make it possible to wall threat A but not without sacrificing enough EVs to 2HKO threat B while threat C can only be outspeed with enough EVs to live a hit from threat D... Honestly we can pretty much do whatever we want in the other stages, see what we have by the EV stage, and concentrate all our efforts there, which I like because that's my favourite stage. But once again, we'll be pretty directionless most of the time, so this may not be ideal.

Choiced Choice Scarf seems pretty neat and to-the-point, there are a bunch of ways to do this and yet it still has a very well-defined purpose, solid concept all-around.

I like Sticky Web Support because it wouldn't be too hard a concept too achieve, give it webs, rocks, enough bulk to set up both, a way not to be complete setup fodder, and you're pretty much done. The only real difficulty would be figuring out how to beat as many relevant hazard removers as possible, but OU doesn't have too many of these so that shouldn't be too difficult. The main appeal of this CAP will be getting to use it, and see if Sticky Webs can actually function if its setter is actually good at its job, or if the tier just won't allow it to. It's entirely possible to make SW viable just by creating a setter which fixes all the problems SW teams have, which isn't too hard since most threats to SW teams have the same exploitable weaknesses : weakness to Rocks, Ice, Pursuit in the case of Latis. Sticky Web teams follow a very specific build, so if we design a Pokemon which perfectly compliments that build, that will make webs a lot better.

At first, the Mediocre Mon seemed interesting, but then I realized that it's way too vague to work with if we follow through. People can't seem to agree on what exactly is "mediocre".

In regards to Use the Boost to Get Through, I'm confused on whether or not the CAP wants a boosting move, such as Swords Dance, or power-boosting Abilities, such as Adaptability (These are just some examples). I'm think a typing with decent coverage, while having a "not too bad, but could be better" move pool, but works better with a boosting move to force its way to the opponent's team, could work. I don't mean to poll-jump or anything, but these are my thoughts.

Let's look at the OU stats for viable, oft-used mons that are airborne. More specifically, mons that are airborne when they switch in.


Oh, boy. That's about 1/3 of the top 56 mons right there. While the other 2/3 of the top 56 are grounded, it is still a vast portion of the metagame. Nonetheless, perhaps we could rectify this by giving our mon the tools it needs to beat common airborne Pokemon throughout the building process. This concept is not entirely about whether Sticky Web is viable or not- it also encompasses what it takes for the move to be viable. Obviously we can make a conjecture about the move's viability by looking at the usage stats, but we do not know the move's true potential until we try it. Even if Sticky Web ends up not being a viable strategy, we will have learned that it's not fit for the current OU metagame as it stands. No matter the outcome, it's about the journey, not the destination, and undertaking this journey will lead to focused, clear discussions, which is exactly what CAP strives for.

its not as simple as just going "look at these pokes which float, wow what a large number of pokes which float, sticky web isn't really viable," because you don't need sticky web to affect everything. what sticky web does is slow down fast grounded pokes that are hugely troublesome for your win conditions at +0 but the tables are flipped when they're at -1. for example, if you're trying to sweep with charizard y, scarftar is normally going to be a pain in the ass, but if you have sticky web up, then you're safe to focus blast it when it switches in. (disclaimer: is this a relevant example? I don't know, I've never played ORAS OU). In essence what sticky web does is with one swath it removes a large portion of the metagame that would otherwise be fast checks to whatever wallbreaker you've got, so instead of having to cover terrak/keld/chomp/kou/gross/manec/whateverthefuckelse, you instead basically just have to cover things which both float and are fast. it gives powerful pokemon which are normally checked by faster threats a much better matchup spread across the meta. there's no real doubt to me that if a good sticky web setter existed, it'd be ou.

still definitely pulling for cowardly lion but i wouldnt mind a sticky web cap either

I'd also like to point out that, in my personal vision, Sticky Web is just generally used as a debuff to an offensive team. For a lot of fast, offensive Pokemon, a Speed drop against other offensive Pokemon is crippling. Even if I can only cripple half your team in this fashion, that honestly seems like enough to me. This might become a reality with a good enough setter.

Sticky Web might not be *amazing* in the current meta due to Bisharp + a lot of fliers / levitators + Defog Lati@s, even if we buffed the setter, but I feel like we have no real idea, because we only see "sticky web teams" i.e. 5 wallbreakers and a suicide lead, which turns out to not be good; how good would '5 offensive mons and offensive sticky web setter' be? Consider that a lot of offensive teams run, say, Defog Lati@s in mildly the same way, good offensive pivot that has a useful utility move, which isn't too related but it's proof that you can get away with devoting a moveslot to utility on an offensive team and still keep the pressure up as well.

Furthermore, three of those Pokemon you mentioned, Charizard, Gyarados, and Altaria, lose their Sticky Web immunity after they Mega Evolve (provided Charizard evolves to X, the vastly more popular version). All three of those Pokemon are staple OU sweepers that see even higher usage in tournaments than on the ladder (except Gyarados), so slowing down those sweepers is a huge boon for Sticky Web. Looking at the Smogon Premier League OU stats, you'll notice that a fair few sweepers are hindered by Sticky Web, although many are not. However, many of the major wallbreakers in OU are indeed vulnerable:

1 | Keldeo | 36 | 31% |
8 | Metagross | 23 | 19% |
8 | Garchomp | 23 | 19% |
29 | Diancie | 7 | 6% |
36 | Manaphy | 5 | 4% |
(Not counting Sableye because it's slow enough before Sticky Web)

I'd like to see if Sticky Web on a more balanced team would be viable since so many wallbreakers cannot handle being slowed down at all. If Sticky Web is up, Mega Metagross can't switch into Pokemon like Gliscor, Garchomp, or Landorus-I even after a teammate faints. Keldeo can't be brought in against Landorus-I or either Charizard forme if Sticky Web is up. While Metagross or Keldeo might not want to switch into those Pokemon, they can usually revenge kill them. With Sticky Web up, that can no longer happen. Sticky Web harms so many revenge killers and wallbreakers that it will certainly find a niche in OU if given a proper setter.

Hello I'm your typing leader. DISCLAIMER: I really hate TL;DR posts and I really feel bad about having people read this, but I think I have some good stuff to say here. It was only long because there's a lot of stuff to respond to.

The Mediocre Mon, Distribution Revolution, and Demon Jester: I would be a fan of these concepts as they seem like fun goals to try at, but as of late CAP has had issues with concepts that are lacking general direction, so I would say no. For right now, we need a strong, concrete goal to strive towards, not some like these.

Use the Boost to Get Through!: I like this concept because it has a clear goal (make a sweeper that can use multiple moves to sweep), bit also explores concepts outside of it. This concept takes a look into unpredictability and checks and counters, but also what makes for a good sweeper in general, which is something we haven't really explored in CAP much recently. It would also be a lot of fun to produce because every stage in its creation would be very important, without real stress on one in particular. Do we give it a snazzy offensive typing with good coverage that allows it to smash through defensive cores, a good defensive typing that allows it to set up on much of the meta without directly destroying them outright, or do we use a more interesting typing that combines the two in a way that has okay offensive and defensive traits, but has a balance between the two? Same goes for abilities. Do we give it abilities that maximize power, maximize setting up capability, or something similar to what Albacore outlined in giving it two abilities that are each good in their own right, but you have to forgo something valuable for another (in case you didn't read his post, giving something no x type STAB but giving it xiate, but then you forgo the powerful other STAB that Adaptability would provide). I like this because there could be many good ways to vary this concept withing each stage to come out to one concrete goal at the end. The trick will be getting all boosting options to be equally viable, so we don't have something like Lucario which has both options (and both are arguably viable), but one is so vastly superior the other isn't really worth much consideration outside a very specific niche.

Core Collapse: Basically what Albacore said.

Choiced Choice Scarf: I believe this would be a good concept to work with as it has a clearly defined goal, good attainability, and would host good discussion in all of the competitive areas of the CAP. This includes all of the competitive aspects as in we could give it good STAB moves and typing for cleaning late-game or an ability that could make it a good offensive pivot (see: Landorus-T) or even just a good revenge killer or momentum builder through use of ability. I think the stats stage would be very interesting if this was the chosen concept as some of the most effective Choice Scarf users have Speed stats all over the board. For example, Keldeo has base 108 Speed which allows it to outspeed many Pokemon, but yet Tyranitar is effective despite having a meager base 61 Speed! Also, we could have fun in moves discussing not only attacking moves, but especially cool support moves seen on Choiced Pokemon such as Healing Wish, Trick, and (only really common on Talonflame [which is a Choice Band users but same idea]) Tailwind.

The only limiting part of this concept is in the art stages because artists will need to consider how the Pokemon would look while wearing a Choice Scarf

The Cowardly Lion: CPed from its concept thread

Ununhexium said:

I think an interesting route would be experimenting with Sub + (status move) Pokemon. For example, a common Pokemon in OU that utilizes a strategy like this is Mega Lopunny who often uses Substitute + Baton Pass or Substitute + Encore to either give a teammate a free switch in or to mess with its usual counters, respectively. This could explore the use of those strategies or even with Substitute + Leech Seed or even a new strategy entirely. Another thing that could be interesting is a Substitute + Status wallbreaker, such as what Jirachi used in UU before it rose to OU. It was efficient in that it could take Seismic Tosses because of its 101 HP Substitutes and spam Iron Head after Toxicing a wall to easily wear it down.

So yeah, while I think maybe a sweeper would be too ~ordinary~ (though I'm not inherently opposed to it, I always find CAP always tries to be original and I think creating a cool new Substitute sweeper would be cool), Substitute + status moves would definitely be a cool option to explore.

Click to expand...

So yeah pretty cool

Sticky Web Support: Though I think some good cases have been made against this concept, I think they could definitely be worked around. People say flyers could be an issue, but we could give the CAP ways to combat them. Also, people bring up priority users, but priority with a few exceptions is much weaker than their other attacks, so a bit extra bulk could be added to beat them. Not really much else to say here, but I just wanted to throw some support behind it.