CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 8 - Counters Discussion

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Birkal

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Wow, hello. We have not had a Counters Discussion since 2011 with Rising_Dusk... yikes. Sorry if this OP is a bit rough. Regardless, make sure to check out nyttyn's post below this for guidance on what exactly we're supposed to get out of this thread. Thanks!

Before we move onto movepool, we must first discuss counters and checks for CAP 20 in a more meaningful way. We have a list of Pokemon that we wanted to check CAP 20 in threats discussion, and we will list them below for reference purposes. Of these, we will now decide which will handle CAP 20 through its naturally learned movepool, and which won't. We want a certain few Pokemon to beat CAP 20 soundly, but we also don't want every Pokemon to beat CAP 20 reliably, as that would result in the opposite problem of it being too easy to beat. Keep all of this in mind for this discussion, which will be open for 48 hours. It's entirely possible if discussion demands it that we will leave this open for longer.

Look here at nyttyn's post here from our Threats Discussion. It will play a crucial role in this discussion.

Alright, time to wrap it up (two days is the same as 24 hours right?). We've had some really good discussion here, and I think we have a pretty good picture of what CAP20 needs to be threatened by, and what it needs to set up on. As such, the following threats and setup list for CAP20 is:

Universal threats to CAP20
Thundurus-I (DD will 75% of the time kill it at +1 but its sweep will be crippled in the process)
Raikou (DD might be able to win at +1 after rocks)
Magnezone
Garchomp
Hippowdon (CM might be able to avoid 2HKO, bulk dependent)
Landorus-T (DD should be able to outspeed after +1 speed (+0 atk after intimidate) and do heavy damage, if not kill outright. Can't switch in on CM, CM might be able to survive a hit)
Excadrill
Kyurem-B
Conkeldurr
Mega Metagross
Mega Gyarados
Swampert
Zapdos (CM at +1 might be able to tank)

Threats to Calm Mind CAP20
All of CAP20's universal threats
Keldeo
Celebi
Breloom
Serperior
Magnezone
Manaphy (SpDef dependent)
Mega Gardevoir (assuming mono-scald coverage. Double Attack CM with flash cannon beats)
Unaware Clefable (assuming mono-scald coverage. Double Attack CM with flash cannon beats)


Threats to Dragon Dance CAP20
All of CAP20's universal threats
Gyarados
Rotom-W
Choice Scarf Keldeo
Faster offensive pokemon (things like Lopunny, which can outspeed before a +1 and either tear a huge chunk out of or outright KO CAP20. Almost all of them will lose at +1 though)
Generic physical walls (such as Skarmory and Mandibuzz)

Threats Calm Mind CAP20 should be able to set up on
Scald (and burns in general)
Chansey
Clefable
Non-tbolt Latios
Non-tbolt Latias
Azumaril
Scizor sans Superpower
Jirachi
Tentacruel (sans haze)
CroCune and CM (Mega) Slowbro (CM only, DD can't break them in time)
Talonflame (fast taunt is a issue)
Volcarona
Gothitelle (somewhat shaky if trick scarf is a possibility)
Sylveon
Tyranitar (risky)
Anything that cannot at least 2HKO CAP that also lacks a fast taunt.

Threats Dragon Dance CAP20 should be able to set up on
Scald (and burns in general)
Chansey
Clefable
Non-tbolt Latios
Non-tbolt Latias
Azumaril
Scizor sans superpower
Talonflame (fast taunt is an issue)
Volcarona
Gothitelle (somewhat shaky if trick scarf is a possibility)
Sylveon
Tyranitar (risky)
Anything else CAP20 forces out for a turn.
What other Pokemon out there should we force to handle CAP 20? Are there any, or is this enough? I have more questions to ask here, and they are listed below.
  • Given the combination of typing, ability, and stat pool now decided, which previously defined threats are considered hard counters to the project?
  • Which Pokemon are regarded as basic counters?
  • Which Pokemon are checks?
  • Are the Pokemon that are currently able to counter the project the Pokemon we want/need to counter the project?
  • If not, what must be done to handle these Pokemon? Is it unavoidable?
  • What Pokemon have arisen in discussions that were not brought up before? As in, are there Pokemon that counter/check this concept on concepts that are not focused around its typing? Where should they be placed in the discussion?
  • Which Pokemon have been taken out of the counters discussion due to the stat pool and ability?
  • Which Pokemon have moved from threats purely by typing to checks? To neutral match-ups?
  • Which Pokemon are now countered by the project fully? Which are checked by the project? Which have become neutral match-ups against the project?
  • With this set list of counters and checks, does this fulfill the concept's goal?
The criteria for a hard counter are as follows, and hard counters must satisfy at least a few of these, but potentially as many as possible. We should focus on making CAP 20's counters handle it as reliably as possible considering any or the most powerful sets.
  • Can switch into this CAP's Strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.
  • Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.
  • Can stall this CAP indefinitely using its recovery options either forcing the CAP out or healing enough that the stalling Pokemon can alternate between recovery and attacking.
  • Can OHKO or 2HKO the CAP with one of the moves on that Pokemon's relevant official Smogon moveset.
  • Can cripple this CAP with a permanent status move without risking a OHKO.
  • Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.
Attacking Moves that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks under ordinary circumstances will not be allowed. Non-Attacking Moves such as stat boosters or Taunt that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks will not be allowed.

Here is a link to our threats discussion for reference.

---

CAP20 so far:

Leadership Team:
nyttyn - Topic Leader
Ununhexium - Typing Leader
trc - Abilities Leader
HeaLnDeaL - Stats Leader
Snobalt - Movepool Leader​

Concept:
Name: Use the Boost to Get Through!

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

Justification: In the early days of Pokemon X and Y, we experienced the first Pokemon that could (viably) boost and sweep from either the physical or special side: Mega Lucario. While it was clear his unpredictability could have a devastating effect (having your Chansey eat a Close Combat, Will-O-Wisping on the Nasty Plot, etc.) the true extent to which this could make a Pokemon better was masked by the fact that Lucario's sets were both already amazing. The purpose of this concept would therefore be to explore the impact of unpredictability in sweepers by creating a Pokemon that can run several boosting sets, none of which are dominant in their own right, but that when combined can result in an extremely dangerous threat.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • Is there a limit to how much unpredictability can make a Pokemon better? Can it make a decent Pokemon great? Or can it only make them usable?
  • How does being unpredictable with boosting options compare to other forms of unpredictability (such as uncommon coverage moves or trying to speed creep certain threats)? Is unpredictability in sweepers inherently more dangerous because of how easily they can win a game?
  • For a Pokemon that is already unpredictable, will we see the use of strange coverage moves (as many sweepers tend to run) or will it tend to stick to standard sets because it already has the element of surprise?
  • Which boosting moves are distinct enough to completely change a Pokemon's checks/counters? Are Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Agility the only ones that can fit this concept? Or is there a way to incorporate moves such as Dragon Dance without giving the Pokemon "the best of both worlds".
  • How effective will double boosting sets be on this Pokemon? Will the ability to "pick your counters" on a Pokemon already designed to bypass its counters be too good? Or can it be designed so that the loss of coverage will still leave it with several checks and counters on any set?
  • To what extent will teams have to prepare for this Pokemon? Will they have to pack several checks/counters like for M-Lucario? Or will they be able to just use a standard team so long as they can identify the set early?
Type: Water / Steel
Abilities: Water Veil / Heatproof
Stats: 103 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 95 SpA / 65 SpD / 97 Spe
 
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nyttyn

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I'm sure you all are wondering why I decided to bring in an optional step that hasn't seen use since 2011 - and yet more of you are wondering what the heck the Counters step even is. To put it in short form, the purpose of this stage is to take another look at our threats list, see what are no longer threats based on typing and ability alone, and reaffirm what threats we will wish to keep as checks or counters.

The reason why this discussion is so important is that coverage will be everything on CAP20 - moves such as Taunt, Drain Punch, or Memento (hahaha) could wildly affect what counters CAP20, and what CAP20 simply forces out. While this is obviously more important for the Dragon Dance set, access to specific moves (such as Rest+Sleep Talk, Substitute, Refresh, Taunt, and more) can completely change what can and cannot beat Calm Mind CAP20. As a result, it is important that we get these Counters and Checks solidified now, so that we don't wind up accidentally giving CAP20 a coverage move that completely...well, breaks it.

For the next day or so, please focus discussion on how our checks list has been affected by our ability and stat choices, and what remain counters, what have become checks, and what are no longer checks or counters at all. Remember that the Calm Mind set and Dragon Dance set will not share all counters, and that the only assumptions that should be made are access to STAB, Calm Mind, and Dragon Dance. After sufficient discussion has occurred (which should take no longer than a day, most likely less), I will post again with a modified threats list, and we will discuss what should and should not remain absolute counters/checks.

For the sake of convinence, the threats list is quoted in the OP. However, keep in mind, if you believe an OU relevant pokemon counters or checks us that is not named on that list is important that we specifically label as a check or counter, you are encouraged to bring it up in your post with the relevant damage calculations/logic.

This will not be a very long stage. It certainly won't be a Never Ending Night.

 

Albacore

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I'll be assuming full bulk investement on CM and only Scald as coverage, as well as full offensive investement on DD with a Jolly nature, dual STABs and a Life Orb. Counters to DD are pretty straightforward, for CM I counted anything that takes one Scald relatively well. Here's the stuff that currently beats either set, depending on what said set runs :

Counters to DD :

Keldeo (if no Drill Peck, Brave Bird, Play Rough, Seed Bomb, Power Whip, or Wild Charge)
Metagross (if no Earthquake or Flare Blitz)
Garchomp (if no Ice Punch)
Mega Lopunny depending on Waterfall rolls (if no Crabhammer)
Power Whip Ferrothorn (if no Blaze Kick or Close Combat)
non-Power Whip Ferrothorn (if no Blaze Kick, Close Combat, Taunt or Substitute)
Mega Gyarados (if no Play Rough, Close Combat, Wild Charge Seed Bomb or Power Whip)
Mega Manectric (if no Earthquake)
Rotom-W (if no Power Whip or Seed Bomb)
Fire Blast Slowbro / Mega Slowbro (if no Seed Bomb, Power Whip, Wild Charge, X Scissor, Shadow Claw or Taunt+Leftovers)
non-Fire Blast Slowbro / Mega Slowbro (if no Seed Bomb, Power Whip, Taunt+Leftovers or Sub+Leftovers+neutral coverage move)
Thunderbolt Starmie (if no Seed Bomb, Power Whip, Knock Off, X Scissor, Shadow Claw or Wild Charge)
Earthquake Gyarados (if no Wild Charge or Stone Edge)
Roar Gyarados (if no Wild Charge, Stone Edge or Taunt)
Skarmory (if no Wild Charge, Blaze Kick, Taunt or Flare Blitz).
Perish Song Politoed (if no Taunt, Seed Bomb, Power Whip or Wild Charge)
Chesnaught (if no Drill Peck or Brave Bird)
Scarf Magnezone (if no Earthqauke, Close Combat or Crabhammer+a good roll)
non-Roar Suicune (if no Taunt, Seed Bomb, Power Whip or Wild Charge)
Mega Swampert in rain (if no Seed Bomb or Power Whip)
Amoonguss (if no Drill Peck, Brave Bird, Blaze Kick, Flare Blitz, or Taunt, and if Sleep Clause hasn't been activated and we don't flicnh with Iron Head)
Quagsire (if no Seed Bomb or Power Whip)
Sharpedo kinda? (if we have no neutral coverage above 110 BP we can't OHKO it at +1 and it deals up to 84% back)
Slowking (same as Slowbro only EQ can 2HKO it too depending on the spread)
Zapdos (if no Stone Edge or no Crabhammer and SR are off the field)
Feraligatr (if no Seed Bomb, Wild Charge or Power Whip)
Mandibuzz (if no Taunt)
Tangrowth (if no Brave Bird / Flare Blitz)
Gastrodon (if no Seed Bomb or Power Whip)
Seismitoed (if no Seed Bomb or Power Whip)
Scarf Thundurus-T (if no Stone Edge)

Counters/phazers to CM :

EQ Mega Altaria (if Scald fails to burn and no Flash Cannon)
Sub DD Mega Altaria (if no Flash Cannon)
Keldeo
CM Unaware Clefable (if no Flash Cannon or Taunt)
Garchomp (if Scald fails to burn)
CM Latios
Thundurus
Celebi (if no Bug Buzz)
Mega Charizard-Y
Mega Manectric
CM Psyshock Mega Slowbro (if no Taunt or Giga Drain)
Roar Mega Gyarados (if no Taunt)
Kyuram-B (if no Flash Cannon)
Mew
Perish Song Politoed (if no Taunt)
Raikou
Serperior
Magnezone
Suicune (if no Taunt, Giga Drain, Psyshock or Secret Sword)
Amoonguss (if no Taunt, and if Sleep Clause hasn't been activated yet)
Roar Empoleon (if no Taunt)
Gothitelle
Zapdos
Toxicroak
Gastrodon
Seismitoed
Thundurus-T

In conclusion :

- Counters to DD are very much movepool-dependent while counters to CM are not (kinda goes without saying, but this will be very important during the Movepool stage)
- Grass coverage hits way too many checks to the DD set.
- EQ helps the DD set against a few offensive threats.
- Taunt helps CM a lot but also helps DD beat stuff it kinda shouldn't if it chooses to run it too.
 
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Deck Knight

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Working off of Albacore's list, Removed Counters by Move (this is to determine WHAT might not counter us, not to fiat or ban a specific move - for example if we say we want DD to beat Keldeo, it does not mandate or ban a specific move.):

Removed Counters List:
Blaze Kick (Flare Blitz):
Amoonguss
Ferrothorn
Skarmory
(Metagross)
(Tangrowth)

Close Combat:
Ferrothorn
Mega Gyarados
Scarf Magnezone
Sharpedo

Drill Peck (Brave Bird):
Amoonguss
Chesnaught
Keldeo
(Tangrowth)

Earthquake:
Metagross
Mega Manectric
Scarf Magnezone
Slowking (depending on spread)

Play Rough:
Keldeo
Mega Gyarados
Sharpedo

Shadow Claw:
Mega Slowbro
Slowking
Thunderbolt Starmie

X-Scissor:
Sharpedo
Mega Slowbro
Slowking
Thunderbolt Starmie

Wild Charge:
Feraligatr
Keldeo
Gyarados
Mega Gyarados
Mega Slowbro
Perish Song Politoed
Sharpedo
Skarmory
Slowking
Thunderbolt Starmie

Stone Edge:
Earthquake Gyarados
Roar Gyarados
Slowking (depending on spread)
Scarf Thundurus-T
Zapdos

Seed Bomb:
Feraligatr
Gastrodon
Keldeo
Mega Gyarados
Mega Slowbro
Mega Swampert in rain
Perish Song Politoed
Quagsire
Rotom-W
Seismitoad
Sharpedo
Slowking
Thunderbolt Starmie
non-Roar Suicune
Giga Drain:
Gastrodon
CM Psyshock Mega Slowbro
Seismitoad
Suicune
Taunt:
Amoonguss
CM Unaware Clefable
Roar Empoleon
non-Power Whip Ferrothorn
Roar Gyarados / Mega Gyarados
Mandibuzz
CM Psyshock Mega Slowbro
non-Fire Blast Mega Slowbro
Perish Song Politoed
Skarmory
Suicune

Substitute:
non-Power Whip Ferrothorn
Trick-Scarf (if Sub is used on the switch)


The only things not really factored in yet are something like Sub+Recover allowing CAP 20 to fish for burns, which would also drastically alter our counters.
 
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I think Grass coverage diserves some conversation. If we add Seed Bomb/Giga Drain then it would give CAP the chance to take on two fairly common Unaware pokemon fairly easily, as well as allow it to perform well against water-types in general.

Edit: did i word this right? I guess i should better frame it thus: do we want CAP to not worry to much about opposing water-types, especially Quagsire and Keldeo?
 
On a slightly weird note, it looks like of the 27 counters Albacore was able to come up with for the CM set, only 10 aren't weak to Freeze Dry, and only 1 resists it.
 
So while Deck Knight and Albacore's lists were both useful, I thought I would just compile the changes to Cap's threatlist based on what we've already decided at stats and Ability.

For the sake of determining which threats are no longer checked by DD, I assumed +1/+1, a Jolly nature, Stealth Rocks are up, and Splash Plate was being held by CAP (strikes me as a generally better option to avoid LO recoil). Meanwhile I assumed CM would be at +1/+1, max Def Bold, and only ran Scald for coverage. For recovery, I assumed Rest (aka, needs to avoid the 3HKO to boost). The changes based solely on what stats Cap ended up with are:

Former Universal Threats
Thundurus-I universal check-> Calm Mind only
Raikou universal check-> Calm Mind only (Waterfall has over 50% chance to OHKO, Aqua Tail guarantees)
Hippowdown universal check-> Dragon Dance only
Scarf Landorus-T universal check-> Calm Mind only
Defensive Landorus-T universal check -> Dragon Dance only
Excadrill (outside of sand) universal check -> Calm Mind only
Kyurem-B universal check -> Calm Mind only

Former Calm Mind Threats

Breloom (needs to get a burn. Access to instant recovery like recover will also let Cap beat this since Breloom can't 2hko. Overall, still a solid check, but no longer a guarantee)

Former Dragon Dance Threats

None, the first list looks good


So overall, this is what the new threat list is with a barren movepool.

Universal threats to CAP20
Magnezone
Garchomp
Conkeldurr
Mega Metagross
Mega Gyarados
Swampert
Zapdos

Ferrothorn (added myself. Pretty sure it's relevant)

Threats to Calm Mind CAP20
All of CAP20's universal threats
Keldeo
Celebi
Breloom
Serperior
Magnezone
Manaphy (SpDef dependent)
Mega Gardevoir (assuming mono-scald coverage. Double Attack CM with flash cannon beats)
Unaware Clefable (assuming mono-scald coverage. Double Attack CM with flash cannon beats) Thundurus-I
Raikou
Scarf Landorus-T
Excadrill
Kyurem-B

Threats to Dragon Dance CAP20
All of CAP20's universal threats
Gyarados
Rotom-W
Choice Scarf Keldeo
Hippowdon
Defensive Landorus-T
Faster offensive pokemon (things like Lopunny, which can outspeed before a +1 and either tear a huge chunk out of or outright KO CAP20. Almost all of them will lose at +1 though)
Generic physical walls (such as Skarmory and Mandibuzz)


Making some observations based on the threats list, there really aren't many Pokemon that can check both sets, while there are some decently sized lists for checking the individual sets. This is the direction we wanted this concept to go in, so I don't think we need a lot of coverage for DD (though a targeted move for some of the more common threats may be called for). Calm Mind would probably like some useful supporting moves to improve the overall quality and reliability of it's set (ie, getting reliable recovery instead of rest, taunt to do better against walls) but it doesn't need a whole lot itself. Overall, I think movepool will just be a matter of giving each set some small buffs without significantly changing the threatlist (unless we're worried that Calm Mind is falling behind, in which case a special coverage move should do the trick).
 

aim

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I'm gonna make a short post since I think enough has been brought up in Albacore's, Deck Knights and mphallor's posts. The counters to the Dragon Dance set are extremely movepool reliant. While Rotom-W can definitely take a +1 Iron Head or Waterfall, it won't appreciate a boosted leaf blade/powerwhip/seedbomb or something along those lines. The same goes for Quagsire, another counter (atm) to the Dragon Dance set. That goes for Keldeo and Gyarados as well. Now for the CM Set, countering it becomes a lot trickier. Cap 20 with a couples of boosts can easily beat Rotom-W (+1 volt switch is barely a 3hk0) Amoongus (can't clear smog due to typing and loses to multiple boosting + burns) Quagsire (loses to burns but can potentially 2hk0 cap 20) as well as even Gyarados due to burns. All of the "counters" become checks at that point as they all fear some secondary effect. So i think that CAP 20's movepool is incredibly important as it can turn those counters into checks and really level the playing field for CAP 20 itself. Again, sorry I didn't make a long list as I feel that everything that needed to be listed was already listed out. It's incredibly hard to be a 100% counter to the CM set as scald is one hell of a move, being able to beat the unaware users regardless of coverage due to burn. If we want the Dragon Dance set to be able to turn its counters into checks, I think that we really do need to look into a grass, fighting or dark coverage move. It allows us to maybe not take out our counters, but stop them from 100% being counters and now checks. I'm really interested to how we will proceed with CAP 20, especially since it's combination of ability, stab and movepool, make it such a unique pokemon.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
just looking at everything that's fine with switching into both sets, Seed Bomb really helps with them, anything not fazed by a scald is fazed by a seed bomb (slash, leaf blade, petal blizzard, power whip, wood hammer). Especially stuff like, say, chomper, where you hit it with a waterfall on the switch-in (except tankchomp, rip lool).

fighting is interesting for Ferro, and i guess Mgyara and Magnezone, but eh. Dark ? seems excessively bleh to me personally

in short, grass coverage seems pretty down to me.
 

Deck Knight

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I'll just make a note that this isn't the movepool discussion, but a quick way to summarize would be this:

We believe that Rotom-W should not be a counter to the DD set. Conveniently, this circumstantially addresses Keldeo.

As far as any other limitations, I think to balance this we can create a scenario where DD CAP has 4MSS.
Should Magnezone counter DD CAP?
Should Mega Metagross counter DD CAP?
Should Fighting types counter DD CAP?


Even if we answer no to all these questions, we still end up with a CAP that has 4MSS as it cannot run DD, 2 STABs, AND a move that covers all of Rotom, Keldeo, Conkeldurr, and Mega Metagross. It is thus in that sense balanced.

Which is why the CM questions are important:
Should physical wall phazers be able to phaze CM CAP?
Should Ferrothorn be able to counter CM CAP?
 
Even if we answer no to all these questions, we still end up with a CAP that has 4MSS as it cannot run DD, 2 STABs, AND a move that covers all of Rotom, Keldeo, Conkeldurr, and Mega Metagross. It is thus in that sense balanced.
I think that assertion in itself is already assuming a great deal about the moveset. Water and Steel as STAB have surprisingly little synergy, and between them only hit 5 types super effectively. Thus, I don't think assuming it's going to run both of its STAB on most DD sets is actually that reasonable. More likely, it's going to stick to one STAB and use two coverage moves with good synergy to that STAB, along with DD. So I guess that actually broadens what we need to ask.

Should CAP be able to use either of its STABs equally effectively?
Should CAP have different counters depending on which STAB option it opts for?
How much coverage are we actually okay with giving CAP?
 

nyttyn

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Alright, we've gotten some good commentary here. It seems that, for the most part, the CM set has only checks, due to the inherent nature of Scald, and the DD set depends entirely on what coverage move(s) it utilizes. While physical Grass coverage has a somewhat dubious interaction with our Counters list, I do not believe it is currently so egregious that it should be removed outright at this point, especially due to the fact that it is the only way for DD sets to handle Rotom-W, a pokemon that should not necessarily always beat the DD set. Substitute seems to screw with the counters list quite a bit, though not to the point of single-handedly disrupting it, so it does not currently disrupt the list of CAP20's checks/counters.

So, I thus request that the remaining discussion focus upon the questions:

Should Magnezone counter DD CAP?
Should Mega Metagross counter DD CAP?
Should Fighting types counter DD CAP?
Should Ferrothorn be able to counter CM CAP?
Does Taunt disrupt the list of DD CAP counters?



These questions are important to determine our remaining counters/checks. Taunt is the most important question, as it seems to allow CAP20 DD to beat things it otherwise shouldn't (namely, many physical walls which are reliant upon recovery or phazing to address CAP20). Discussion will end this afternoon, no sooner than 6 PM ET / 11 PM UTC.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

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just my initial thoughts:

Magnezone should counter CAP 20 as anything that can boost it's attack and speed and then get past something that should trap it doesn't sound too balanced to me, so I'd think it's physical coverage should be limited to allow magnezone to counter it. Similarly, for Mega Metagross too; it should be able to beat it 1v1.

Fighting types, mainly Keldeo, should be able to counter DD CAP 20, otherwise it turns one of our biggest counter to it, to a check if given the right coverage.

Ferrothorn is a kinda shaky check to CM CAP, because as soon as it gets burnt by Scald, it just becomes setup fodder, provided Leech Seed doesn't makes contact. But I still believe that it shouldn't get the tools to just beat Ferrothorn

Taunt would disrupt the checks/counters on both sides of CAP 20 imo. CAP 20 cannot be burnt via Water Veil and is immune to Toxic due to typing, but the other options like Perish Song, Haze, Encore, etc. suddenly don't work. Going back to Ferrothorn, Taunt also prevents Leech Seed, which can make the CM set even more deadly.
 

Albacore

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I think DD CAP should have coverage for Fighting types simply on the basis that the CM set is hopeless against most fighting types (Keldeo, Conkeldurr, Lopunny and Breloom to a lesser extent), so DD being able to beat them fits in with the differing checks aspect.

Same applies to Magnezone and MMetgaross to a lesser extent. Magnezone doesn't just beat CM CAP, it outright traps it, and being able to KO it at +1 from full will once again help seperate checks and counters. Metagross hates scald burns from CM CAP and really isn't an anwser to it so personally I don't reallyè care if DD beats it or notThat being said the coverage needed for Magnezone and Metagross seems too niche to be really worth running, unless we deny the CAP any good offensive coverage whatsoever.

CM CAP is beating Ferrothorn no matter what. Even if we go for Resttalk, Power Whip does 27.3% max which, combined with Leech Seed and Leftovers, is very unlikely to 3HKO the CAP even if Ferro doesn't get burnt, and it the CAP runs Sub it can avoid gettting Leeched pretty reliably. And obviously, if Ferrothorn doesn't run Power Whip, which it doesn't usually do, it can't touch us. However, whether or not we want the CAP to get Leech Seeded actually matters, since this will wear it down and make it easier to check. A RestTalk set will naturally be more vulnerable to Ferrothorn whereas one which runs Recover can fit Sub or Taunt relatively easily and beat it. So Ferro isn't beating the CM set but depending on what we choose it could slow it down. (I do think DD should lose to CM though).

Taunt helps the CM CAP significantly, and though DD can use it, it has to sacrifice coverage and therefore effectiveness against offensive teams, which is what makes CM worth using over DD in the first place, so I'm not scared of CM being overshadowed by DD if we gave the CAP Taunt. Right now, I don't have too much of a problem with Taunt.
 
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aim

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Should Magnezone counter DD CAP? Magnezone is a check as if cap 20 has already boosted, choice scarf magnezone cannot switch into any hit from it, but has to revenge kill it after letting something go down, or try and bring it in on the initial DD. While I do believe that Magnezone should be able to revenge kill CAP 20, we cannot call it a counter due to the fact that CAP 20's main water stab, is a solid 2HK0 and can flinch and knock out Magnezone. I do, however, think that Magnezone should be able to check CAP 20.
Should Mega Metagross counter DD CAP? Again, this is another example of a check to CAP 20 as a boosted waterfall can 2hk0 and of course flinch. I don't think that CAP 20 should get ground coverage though as that would disrupt the nature of MegaGross and Magnezone being able to check it.
Should Fighting types counter DD CAP? I assume that we are talking about Keldeo and to a lesser extent, conkeldurr and breloom. The later would be considered checks w/ mach punch and other fighting stabs respectively. I believe Keldeo should be able to outright beat DD CAP 20, no matter what. CAP 20, however, should have some way of punishing Keldeo before having to set up. Similar to how Gyarados will just click waterfall early on to weaken keldeo that way later on it can knock it out with +1 earthquake. The other mons are 2Hk0d by CAP 20's respective stab and you only 0k0 it back depending on ev spreads and specific stuff like Life Orb Adamant look (jolly is the most common). Some fighting types should be checks and Keldeo can be a counter but i think that CAP 20 needs some way to punish Keldeo regardless of it always being able to switch in.
Should Ferrothorn be able to counter CM CAP? We cannot consider Ferrothorn an absolute counter to CM CAP as scald completely disrupts that and if we do get a burn, Ferrothorn is dealt with for the most part. I believe that Ferrothorn should be a counter to DD CAP but due to scald being scald, it is a check to CM Cap. Similar to how it is a check to Suicune (crocune) as with burns and repeated boosting, it is beaten.
Does Taunt disrupt the list of DD CAP counters?
Not really. Rotom-w, at the moment, is a 100% counter to CAP 20's dual stab and doesn't care about Taunt as it cannot burn it anyway. Ferrothorn, albeit not as common as leech seed gyro ball hazard protect, still beats CAP 20 with powerwhip and fails to be 3-4Hk0'd. Keldeo does not care about taunt and Thundurus can still Para Full Para with prankster twave anyway (although it's a check). To sum it up, Taunt doesn't really affect the "counters" to the DD Set.
 
Should Magnezone counter DD CAP?

Technically speaking, Magnezone is not going to beat DD CAP by default, for a Dragon Dance CAP is not going to attempt to break through Magnezone while it is fully healthy (unless it has Earthquake). Magnezone also gets outsped by a +1 CAP.
Should Mega Metagross counter DD CAP?

Our DD CAP is not going to attempt to break through Mega Gross while it is at 100% HP; it is going to wait until Mega Gross has received some prior damage before it attempts to break past it. I do not think Mega Gross being able to beat it should be the first of our priorities, for it is not that difficult for an opponent to wear down.

Should Fighting types counter DD CAP?

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Empoleon Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 296-348 (84.3 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Keldeo already beats our CAP regardless, and while Conkeldurr can be worn down, it is still a pain in the neck to deal with, due to how it is difficult to OHKO without Stealth Rock or Spikes down.

Should Ferrothorn be able to counter CM CAP?

Ferrothorn hates Scald, but aside from that, it already beats Calm Mind CAP, unless we want to give our CAP Taunt. I admit, I was not thinking of Taunt as a means of beating Ferrothorn, but I do not see the harm in including it.

Does Taunt disrupt the list of DD CAP counters?

CM CAP counters are bothered by Taunt more than DD CAP Counters; look at Ferrothorn, Mega Slowbro, Chansey, and Manaphy, all of which give the CM CAP a very difficult time. DD CAP is more meant for cleaning weakened offensive teams, and most Pokemon on offense are usually not bothered enough by Taunt to be used in tandem with Dragon Dance.
 

nyttyn

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Conclusion:

Magnezone should check CAP20, though it cannot reliably do so if CAP20 has access to Fire, Fighting, or Ground coverage. Ground coverage allows it to handle both Mega Metagross and Magnezone on the same set, so it will not be allowed, by virtue of allowing DD CAP20 to handle two of its largest checks at once. Scarf Keldeo will remain a check to CAP20, with grass, flying, or electric coverage required to be able to attempt to KO it back (while scarf sets can come in and OHKO w/ secret sword). I also recommend that movepool posters place special care on discussing the implementation of Substitute on any CAP20 set, but that's a discussion that can occur in movepool.

We will use this list made by Deck Knight to aid us in competitive movesets. I request that all moveset posters and submitters take the time to read this list, and understand how each possible coverage move addresses specific checks/counters to CAP20.

Working off of Albacore's list, Removed Counters by Move (this is to determine WHAT might not counter us, not to fiat or ban a specific move - for example if we say we want DD to beat Keldeo, it does not mandate or ban a specific move.):

Removed Counters List:
Blaze Kick (Flare Blitz):
Amoonguss
Ferrothorn
Skarmory
(Metagross)
(Tangrowth)

Close Combat:
Ferrothorn
Mega Gyarados
Scarf Magnezone
Sharpedo

Drill Peck (Brave Bird):
Amoonguss
Chesnaught
Keldeo
(Tangrowth)

Earthquake:
Metagross
Mega Manectric
Scarf Magnezone
Slowking (depending on spread)


Play Rough:
Keldeo
Mega Gyarados
Sharpedo

Shadow Claw:
Mega Slowbro
Slowking
Thunderbolt Starmie

X-Scissor:
Sharpedo
Mega Slowbro
Slowking
Thunderbolt Starmie

Wild Charge:
Feraligatr
Keldeo
Gyarados
Mega Gyarados
Mega Slowbro
Perish Song Politoed
Sharpedo
Skarmory
Slowking
Thunderbolt Starmie

Stone Edge:
Earthquake Gyarados
Roar Gyarados
Slowking (depending on spread)
Scarf Thundurus-T
Zapdos

Seed Bomb:
Feraligatr
Gastrodon
Keldeo
Mega Gyarados
Mega Slowbro
Mega Swampert in rain
Perish Song Politoed
Quagsire
Rotom-W
Seismitoad
Sharpedo
Slowking
Thunderbolt Starmie
non-Roar Suicune
Giga Drain:
Gastrodon
CM Psyshock Mega Slowbro
Seismitoad
Suicune
Taunt:
Amoonguss
CM Unaware Clefable
Roar Empoleon
non-Power Whip Ferrothorn
Roar Gyarados / Mega Gyarados
Mandibuzz
CM Psyshock Mega Slowbro
non-Fire Blast Mega Slowbro
Perish Song Politoed
Skarmory
Suicune

Substitute:
non-Power Whip Ferrothorn
Trick-Scarf (if Sub is used on the switch)


The only things not really factored in yet are something like Sub+Recover allowing CAP 20 to fish for burns, which would also drastically alter our counters.
Now onto competitive movesets
 
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