Birkal
We have the technology.
Wow, hello. We have not had a Counters Discussion since 2011 with Rising_Dusk... yikes. Sorry if this OP is a bit rough. Regardless, make sure to check out nyttyn's post below this for guidance on what exactly we're supposed to get out of this thread. Thanks!
Before we move onto movepool, we must first discuss counters and checks for CAP 20 in a more meaningful way. We have a list of Pokemon that we wanted to check CAP 20 in threats discussion, and we will list them below for reference purposes. Of these, we will now decide which will handle CAP 20 through its naturally learned movepool, and which won't. We want a certain few Pokemon to beat CAP 20 soundly, but we also don't want every Pokemon to beat CAP 20 reliably, as that would result in the opposite problem of it being too easy to beat. Keep all of this in mind for this discussion, which will be open for 48 hours. It's entirely possible if discussion demands it that we will leave this open for longer.
Look here at nyttyn's post here from our Threats Discussion. It will play a crucial role in this discussion.
Here is a link to our threats discussion for reference.
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CAP20 so far:
Leadership Team:
Concept:
Abilities: Water Veil / Heatproof
Stats: 103 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 95 SpA / 65 SpD / 97 Spe
Before we move onto movepool, we must first discuss counters and checks for CAP 20 in a more meaningful way. We have a list of Pokemon that we wanted to check CAP 20 in threats discussion, and we will list them below for reference purposes. Of these, we will now decide which will handle CAP 20 through its naturally learned movepool, and which won't. We want a certain few Pokemon to beat CAP 20 soundly, but we also don't want every Pokemon to beat CAP 20 reliably, as that would result in the opposite problem of it being too easy to beat. Keep all of this in mind for this discussion, which will be open for 48 hours. It's entirely possible if discussion demands it that we will leave this open for longer.
Look here at nyttyn's post here from our Threats Discussion. It will play a crucial role in this discussion.
What other Pokemon out there should we force to handle CAP 20? Are there any, or is this enough? I have more questions to ask here, and they are listed below.Alright, time to wrap it up (two days is the same as 24 hours right?). We've had some really good discussion here, and I think we have a pretty good picture of what CAP20 needs to be threatened by, and what it needs to set up on. As such, the following threats and setup list for CAP20 is:
Universal threats to CAP20
Thundurus-I (DD will 75% of the time kill it at +1 but its sweep will be crippled in the process)
Raikou (DD might be able to win at +1 after rocks)
Magnezone
Garchomp
Hippowdon (CM might be able to avoid 2HKO, bulk dependent)
Landorus-T (DD should be able to outspeed after +1 speed (+0 atk after intimidate) and do heavy damage, if not kill outright. Can't switch in on CM, CM might be able to survive a hit)
Excadrill
Kyurem-B
Conkeldurr
Mega Metagross
Mega Gyarados
Swampert
Zapdos (CM at +1 might be able to tank)
Threats to Calm Mind CAP20
All of CAP20's universal threats
Keldeo
Celebi
Breloom
Serperior
Magnezone
Manaphy (SpDef dependent)
Mega Gardevoir (assuming mono-scald coverage. Double Attack CM with flash cannon beats)
Unaware Clefable (assuming mono-scald coverage. Double Attack CM with flash cannon beats)
Threats to Dragon Dance CAP20
All of CAP20's universal threats
Gyarados
Rotom-W
Choice Scarf Keldeo
Faster offensive pokemon (things like Lopunny, which can outspeed before a +1 and either tear a huge chunk out of or outright KO CAP20. Almost all of them will lose at +1 though)
Generic physical walls (such as Skarmory and Mandibuzz)
Threats Calm Mind CAP20 should be able to set up on
Scald (and burns in general)
Chansey
Clefable
Non-tbolt Latios
Non-tbolt Latias
Azumaril
Scizor sans Superpower
Jirachi
Tentacruel (sans haze)
CroCune and CM (Mega) Slowbro (CM only, DD can't break them in time)
Talonflame (fast taunt is a issue)
Volcarona
Gothitelle (somewhat shaky if trick scarf is a possibility)
Sylveon
Tyranitar (risky)
Anything that cannot at least 2HKO CAP that also lacks a fast taunt.
Threats Dragon Dance CAP20 should be able to set up on
Scald (and burns in general)
Chansey
Clefable
Non-tbolt Latios
Non-tbolt Latias
Azumaril
Scizor sans superpower
Talonflame (fast taunt is an issue)
Volcarona
Gothitelle (somewhat shaky if trick scarf is a possibility)
Sylveon
Tyranitar (risky)
Anything else CAP20 forces out for a turn.
- Given the combination of typing, ability, and stat pool now decided, which previously defined threats are considered hard counters to the project?
- Which Pokemon are regarded as basic counters?
- Which Pokemon are checks?
- Are the Pokemon that are currently able to counter the project the Pokemon we want/need to counter the project?
- If not, what must be done to handle these Pokemon? Is it unavoidable?
- What Pokemon have arisen in discussions that were not brought up before? As in, are there Pokemon that counter/check this concept on concepts that are not focused around its typing? Where should they be placed in the discussion?
- Which Pokemon have been taken out of the counters discussion due to the stat pool and ability?
- Which Pokemon have moved from threats purely by typing to checks? To neutral match-ups?
- Which Pokemon are now countered by the project fully? Which are checked by the project? Which have become neutral match-ups against the project?
- With this set list of counters and checks, does this fulfill the concept's goal?
- Can switch into this CAP's Strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.
- Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.
- Can stall this CAP indefinitely using its recovery options either forcing the CAP out or healing enough that the stalling Pokemon can alternate between recovery and attacking.
- Can OHKO or 2HKO the CAP with one of the moves on that Pokemon's relevant official Smogon moveset.
- Can cripple this CAP with a permanent status move without risking a OHKO.
- Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.
Here is a link to our threats discussion for reference.
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CAP20 so far:
Leadership Team:
nyttyn - Topic Leader
Ununhexium - Typing Leader
trc - Abilities Leader
HeaLnDeaL - Stats Leader
Snobalt - Movepool Leader
Ununhexium - Typing Leader
trc - Abilities Leader
HeaLnDeaL - Stats Leader
Snobalt - Movepool Leader
Concept:
Type: Water / SteelName: Use the Boost to Get Through!
General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.
Justification: In the early days of Pokemon X and Y, we experienced the first Pokemon that could (viably) boost and sweep from either the physical or special side: Mega Lucario. While it was clear his unpredictability could have a devastating effect (having your Chansey eat a Close Combat, Will-O-Wisping on the Nasty Plot, etc.) the true extent to which this could make a Pokemon better was masked by the fact that Lucario's sets were both already amazing. The purpose of this concept would therefore be to explore the impact of unpredictability in sweepers by creating a Pokemon that can run several boosting sets, none of which are dominant in their own right, but that when combined can result in an extremely dangerous threat.
Questions To Be Answered:
- Is there a limit to how much unpredictability can make a Pokemon better? Can it make a decent Pokemon great? Or can it only make them usable?
- How does being unpredictable with boosting options compare to other forms of unpredictability (such as uncommon coverage moves or trying to speed creep certain threats)? Is unpredictability in sweepers inherently more dangerous because of how easily they can win a game?
- For a Pokemon that is already unpredictable, will we see the use of strange coverage moves (as many sweepers tend to run) or will it tend to stick to standard sets because it already has the element of surprise?
- Which boosting moves are distinct enough to completely change a Pokemon's checks/counters? Are Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Agility the only ones that can fit this concept? Or is there a way to incorporate moves such as Dragon Dance without giving the Pokemon "the best of both worlds".
- How effective will double boosting sets be on this Pokemon? Will the ability to "pick your counters" on a Pokemon already designed to bypass its counters be too good? Or can it be designed so that the loss of coverage will still leave it with several checks and counters on any set?
- To what extent will teams have to prepare for this Pokemon? Will they have to pack several checks/counters like for M-Lucario? Or will they be able to just use a standard team so long as they can identify the set early?
Abilities: Water Veil / Heatproof
Stats: 103 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 95 SpA / 65 SpD / 97 Spe
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