CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

Hello I am Korski and I still work here, I guess!

In this thread we will discuss the typing for CAP20. Our section leader and guide on this journey is Ununhexium, so when he christens this thread with an opening post, discussion may begin. Be sure to pay attention to what he says because he is responsible for directing the discussion and will decide the slate of typing options to be voted on at the culmination of this discussion. Our Topic Leader, nyttyn, will also be around to keep everyone focused on the concept at hand.

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CAP20 so far:

Leadership Team:

nyttyn - Topic Leader
Ununhexium - Typing Leader
trc - Abilities Leader
HeaLnDeaL - Stats Leader
Snobalt - Movepool Leader

Concept:

Name: Use the Boost to Get Through!

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

Justification: In the early days of Pokemon X and Y, we experienced the first Pokemon that could (viably) boost and sweep from either the physical or special side: Mega Lucario. While it was clear his unpredictability could have a devastating effect (having your Chansey eat a Close Combat, Will-O-Wisping on the Nasty Plot, etc.) the true extent to which this could make a Pokemon better was masked by the fact that Lucario's sets were both already amazing. The purpose of this concept would therefore be to explore the impact of unpredictability in sweepers by creating a Pokemon that can run several boosting sets, none of which are dominant in their own right, but that when combined can result in an extremely dangerous threat.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is there a limit to how much unpredictability can make a Pokemon better? Can it make a decent Pokemon great? Or can it only make them usable?
• How does being unpredictable with boosting options compare to other forms of unpredictability (such as uncommon coverage moves or trying to speed creep certain threats)? Is unpredictability in sweepers inherently more dangerous because of how easily they can win a game?
• For a Pokemon that is already unpredictable, will we see the use of strange coverage moves (as many sweepers tend to run) or will it tend to stick to standard sets because it already has the element of surprise?
• Which boosting moves are distinct enough to completely change a Pokemon's checks/counters? Are Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Agility the only ones that can fit this concept? Or is there a way to incorporate moves such as Dragon Dance without giving the Pokemon "the best of both worlds".
• How effective will double boosting sets be on this Pokemon? Will the ability to "pick your counters" on a Pokemon already designed to bypass its counters be too good? Or can it be designed so that the loss of coverage will still leave it with several checks and counters on any set?
• To what extent will teams have to prepare for this Pokemon? Will they have to pack several checks/counters like for M-Lucario? Or will they be able to just use a standard team so long as they can identify the set early?

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Hi I'm Ununhexium, your typing leader

Nyttyn decided we would go with Dragon Dance and Calm Mind for our boosting moves, so now we must decide the typing of our CAP. I'll include nyttyn's post here.

Apologies for the delay, real life and sickness caught up to me in a big way the past two days and I was completely out of commission. That aside, it seems we have come to a consensus. Neither set should be cutting edge, dominant S-tier levels of good in the OU meta - instead, we should be looking towards making two sets that, while still perfectly good, fall short of true greatness, and instead utilize the versatility and surprise factor of having two radically different sets to our advantage. The Dragon Dance set will attempt to gain one boost and then go to town, while the Calm Mind set will be attempting to fish for multiple boosts to become an extremely powerful, bulky sweeper. I would like to emphasize the pros and cons of each move, just so everyone's on the same page - Dragon Dance is a more varied beast, capable of having the luxury of using coverage and being an threat after a single boost, though lacking in overwhelming raw power and thus being better at cleaning up an already weakened team, while Calm Mind is more reliant upon a singular attack, instead utilizing recovery and overwhelming power and bulk to be able to KO even healthy pokemon.

Click to expand...

Onto typing.
For right now I think there are two main questions we should focus on:

• What threats should our CAP be able to set up on? (Remember, the CAP could set up by forcing something out, not just by defensive typing)
• Should our CAP prioritize setting up potential to sweeping potential?

What threats should our CAP be able to set up on?

This is somewhat of a hard question to answer considering that we don't really have a type yet, but the ability to set up on pokes who have no offensive presence such as Chansey is critical in my opinion. We also should be able to deal with Talonflame typing wise , It's not mandatory that we have the ability to set up on this thing (Although that would be nice), but we really shouldn't be weak to it either, as being weak to it's Brave Bird really negates the point of us using Dragon Dance to be able to outspeed certain threats that the Calm Mind set cannot, which is somewhat anti-concept imo.

What threats should our CAP be able to set up on?
This is perhaps more focused towards the CM set, but CAP should definitely be able, by typing or ability, to set up on a good portion of the defensive pokemon (without phazing) and status users in OU. This obviously needs to be backed up by usage stats which I can't find right this instant, but this should include bulky waters, Chansey, M Sableye maybe, Ferrothorn, Gliscor et al. We're probably not gonna be able to set up on things like Heatran, Hippo, Zapdos or Skarmory because of a potential Roar/Whirlwind, so there's really no point in focusing on those. I would probably say that, for the CM set in particular to work, we want a typing that grants an immunity to Toxic just so that we don't have to rely on an ability like Magic Guard which could potentially push CAP over the top. Obviously this isn't 100% mandatory because of other possibilities like Taunt/Sub/Heal Bell/RestTalk, but being able to come in for free on certain walls that rely on Toxic to deter setup is obviously really really nice.
We probably enjoy shrugging off WoW too, but that's probably less important for the CM set. The DD set is obviously on another boat tho

What threats should our CAP be able to set up on?

I think we should base our CAP's typing primarily around how it handles bulky Steel types. I'm talking stuff like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Jirachi, Bronzong, Heatran to some extent. Reason being that these Pokemon have a ton of resists, meaning that it would be easy to find dual STABs that are resisted my one or more of these Pokemon, preventing an offensive set from breaking past them, however they are also relatively passive and easy to take advantage of, meaning that they can serve as setup fodder for bulkier sets. In general, Steel types often have this relationship with other Pokemon where they are mutually walled, which is a situation which offensive Pokemon always lose and defensive Pokemon can win. So you can easily see how this can help our concept.
Ferrothorn specifically seems like a very good place to start since it should be easy to make sure the DD set is walled by it while a bulkier one isn't, since it has no phazing unlike Hetaran or Skarm, isn't particularly powerful, both of its STABs are easy to set up on defensively (Gyro Ball is easily PP stalled while Power Whip has a miss chance, and they have poor coverage together) and rarely carries Toxic in favour of Leech Seed, which, while it does wear down CM sets, isn't at all enough to stop them especially when paired up with Leftovers recovery. Enabling our CAP to beat other steel types if and only if it runs CM should flow pretty naturally from there, and even we do have trouble doing that, we still have the guarantee that there is a very common Pokemon which beats DD but not CM.
I'm not too concerned about the DD set since it has an inherent advantage over the CM set in its speed, and we'll naturally end up having lots of checks to the CM set that the DD set can beat (basically wallbreakers and just strong attackers in general), whereas the opposite isn't really true. Finding stuff CM can set up on that DD is walled by should be our priority.

Should our CAP prioritize setting up potential to sweeping potential?

I'm definitely on the side of setup potential being a priority for multiple reasons. Firstly, it prevents our Pokemon from acting as an all-out attacker. Secondly, it restricts the offensive set which has a good chance of completely overshadowing the bulky set if we give it good enough dual STAB coverage to hit most of the metagame neutrally. And thirdly, iif we prioriotise sweeping over setup we will need to give it good offensive stats, which will bite us in the back during the stats stage when we realise we can't give it both good offensive and defensive stats. CM can only really make use of defensive stats, while DD can make use of both offensive and defensive, so focusing on setup is the only way we can make both sets work without going over the BST limit.

So basically, what I'm saying is that we want a Steel type. It would fit both criteria very well, being able to set up on a lot of Pokemon and finding itself in a stalemate position against a lot of other Steels. It also gives us immunity to Poison which we absolutely need on a CM set.

I think the most successful use of this CAP is going to be in the first two turns it's in play. Ideally, it should get two free turns to boost, the first when forcing a switch and a second when the opponent sends in the wrong check, predicting DD or CM when in fact the CAP is running the opposite set. Again, that is the ideal situation, not a guarantee, but it is what we should strive for. We are shooting for a bulky build here, yes, but that does not mean the CAP is a defensive Pokemon. For these reasons, I believe the typing should focus more on immediate offensive pressure, as opposed to walling certain target Pokemon, in order to force switches in a variety of situations and get the ball rolling on accumulating boosts.

Who should the CAP set up on? I'm thinking Pokemon that can't be willfully sacrificed, like dedicated physical or specially defensive Pokemon (Skarmory, Slowbro, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Chansey, Latias, etc.), or opposing setup sweepers or "win-con" offensive Pokemon (Azumarill, Dragon Dancers, Mega Lopunny types, revenge killers, etc.). These Pokes are precious to opponents, whose strategies fall apart if they lose a member of their defensive core or primary sweeper early on in the match; this is our opening.

I don't want to list specific Pokemon to set up on because I think that as long as the typing offers at least one SE hit on a large swath of Pokemon, it will be successful at both setting up and sweeping.

So to me these questions er, aren't exactly what we need, so I'm just going to outline what I think we need in a typing, and hopefully address them indirectly?

(these are ordered from most to least important)

1) A type with no 4x weaknesses
For a bulky cmer, which is what our cm set should be ideally, a 4x weakness is very crippling, as the entire point of the mon is basically getting to a point where you wall their entire team and then cm up until you can also kill their entire team. Its really hard to get to that state when you have a 4x weakness, because it just takes too much bulk/too many boosts to be able to take 4x hits.

2) A type that does decently against priority
If our dd set is going to be a significant threat against offense, it shouldn't just die to much priority. This doesn't mean we need a type that resists every single priority by any stretch of the imagination, but at the least a flying resist would be helpful, and I'd definitely like to see us not weak to more than at most one common priority move.

3) A STAB that is relatively spammable
This is especially important against the defensive pokemon of the tier, enabling cm to run a monoattacking set if that is the direction we choose to take. I worry less about the dd set in this regard, because dd will presumably have moveslots to run more coverage than cm, and so we can patch a decent stab with coverage later.

4) A type that gives us natural resistance to a damaging status
All bulky cm mons need some way to avoid losing to any mon with toxic/will-o-wisp. This can be done in a wide variety of ways, either by a combination of type + immunity/water veil, magic bounce, magic guard, restalk, etc. I would like to see us keep our options as open as possible in this stage for how we decide to combat status on the cm set.

5) A type that helps dd set up
This is something that is useful, but given its pretty much a given we will have at least decent bulk and defensive type I don't think this is a huge priority. DD will be able to find set up opportunities, especially by bluffing cm.

So i hope this at least indirectly addresses the questions...

After speaking with Imanalt, srk1214, Albacore, Cretacerus and others on IRC extensively, we've at least come to the conclusion that we want this mon to set up on dedicated revenge killers. It's absolutely vital for our CAP to beat revenge killers in order to prolong its sweep.

EDIT: While such a typing would be useful on both sets, it applies moreso to the DD set because of priority users. By forcing out opposing priority users, we're gaining a free turn of setup. Two big revenge killers that we have focused on in #CAP are Talonflame and Landorus-T. (Yes, Lando-T lacks priority, but it's got the next best thing in Choice Scarf.) Our typing should threaten these guys both defensively and offensively. Resistance to T-Flame's Brave Bird is a must, though that would make us weak to Lando-T's EQ by default. Nonetheless, we can get around that by having a typing that Lando-T is weak to, thus defeating it right then and there or forcing it to U-turn out. We'll need the bulk to take an EQ, but that comes later in the process.

Okay guess we can post typings now. I like the goals put forth by Ununhexium, and I like the options of Water/Steel and Electric/Fairy, but for now I will only propose one.

At the end of the day, this CAP is going to be an offensive Pokemon, so for the purposes of a (presumably bulky/balanced) boosting sweeper, I feel as though a broadly offensive yet targeted defensive typing would be best-suited for this CAP:

Electric / Fairy

2x: Ground, Poison
1x: Fairy, Fire, Ghost, Grass, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Steel, Rock, Water
1/2x: Bug, Dark, Electric, Fighting, Flying
0x: Dragon

Notable STABs: Discharge, Draining Kiss, Fusion Bolt (allowed by nyttyn/mods), Moonblast, Nuzzle, Parabolic Charge, Play Rough, Thunder Punch, Thunderbolt, Wild Charge

Here is how OU stacks up against this typing, defensively:

Weak to STABs: Altaria-M, Azumarill, Breloom, Charizard-Y, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, Empoleon, Gallade-M, Garchomp, Gyarados, Gyarados-M, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, Latias, Latios, Lopunny-M, Manaphy, Mandibuzz, Sableye-M, Skarmory, Slowbro, Slowbro-M, Starmie, Talonflame, Tyranitar, Tyranitar-M

Neutral to STABs: Bisharp, CAP20, Celebi, Chansey, Charizard-X, Clefable, Diancie-M, Gardevoir-M, Gengar, Gliscor, Gothitelle, Heatran, Hippowdon, Jirachi, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Manectric-M, Metagross-M, Mew, Raikou, Rotom-W, Scizor, Scizor-M, Sylveon, Thundurus, Zapdos

Resistant to STABs: Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Venusaur-M

A Few Thoughts:

• Many of the Pokes hit SE by this typing are considered to be OU’s most reliable tanks and walls, notably Azumarill, Conkeldurr, Garchomp, Latias, Manaphy, Sableye-M, Skarmory, Slowbro, Slowbro-M, and Tyranitar. Being able to bypass these typically foolproof answers to offense will give the CAP a niche few other sweepers enjoy.
• This typing gives the CAP an immediately threatening STAB against an large swath of offensive Pokemon, notably Garchomp, Gyarados(-M), Keldeo, Latios, Lopunny-M, and Talonflame, which will deter them from switching in before the opponent knows CAP’s set.
• All of OU’s Dragon Dance and Calm Mind users (barring Clefable and a few outliers like CM Landorus-I/Sylveon), notably Altaria-M, Gyarados(-M), Latias, Latios, Sableye-M, and Slowbro-M, receive SE blows from this typing. This will give the CAP a strong fighting chance in boosting wars.
• With such a large and diverse list of Pokemon weak to these STABs alone, applying enough offensive pressure to force switches and gain free turns to boost should be fairly common, especially before the CAP’s set is revealed or as opponents switch in the wrong checks or counters.
• Fire-type attacks would give the CAP perfect neutral coverage in the tier as well as a SE hit on Bisharp, Celebi, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Magnezone, Metagross-M, and Scizor(-M), most of whom currently stand as strong checks or even full counters.
• This typing resists Brave Bird, Mach Punch, and Sucker Punch while remaining neutral to Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch, giving the CAP a serious edge against opposing priority attacks as it attempts to sweep.
• This typing resists the bulk of unbearable OU spam moves: Birdspam, Draco Meteor, Knock Off, U-turn, and Volt Switch (maybe we can tackle Scald later).
• The Electric typing grants CAP an immunity to paralysis, which is a great feature for the Dragon Dance set that is unavailable to all other DD users.
• This dual typing also opens up a potentially neat avenue for CM sets to use the HP-draining moves Parabolic Charge and Draining kiss to keep itself healthy as it sets up in lieu of reliable recovery.
• The best answers to this CAP, based only on its intended function as a “less predictable” boosting sweeper and on this typing, would most likely be mixed-defensive Pokemon with advantageous typing (Amoongus, Ferrothorn, Venusaur-M), bulky Ground-types (Excadrill, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Hippowdon), bulky Steel-types (Heatran, Metagross-M, SD Scizor-M), Unaware Clefable, and Status (Burn for DD, Toxic for CM). Naturally, Abilities, Stats, and Movepool will add to and subtract from this list, and ideally CAP’s chosen set will jostle this list around a bit.

The typing is not without its flaws, though:

• The Ground weakness and (presumably) underwhelming initial offensive presence will pull in the omnipresent Landorus-T and Gliscor whenever they are available (I have some ideas about this for later stages but I won’t post them here); this could be an asset or a flaw, too soon to tell. Either way, those two Pokemon especially tend to last quite a while in any Pokemon battle and would require our attention in future stages.
• The Electric typing has pretty poor options for physical offense: Wild Charge and Thunder Punch both have unfortunate drawbacks, yet DD CAP will want one or the other to get through Gengar, Heatran, Metagross-M, Scizor(-M), Skarmory, Slowbro(-M), and Talonflame (assuming no coverage at this point). (Edit: the TL and mods have decided to allow Fusion Bolt for consideration on this CAP, so this point may be less dire than it was originally). CM CAP, on the other hand, will have no such limitations on viable STAB options.
• Most opposing Dragon Dancers commonly run Earthquake, while CM Lati@s always runs Psyshock in order to beat opposing CM users, so most often whichever Poke gets the first boost will win those matchups.
• The typing relies on offensive pressure to force switches (it doesn’t really wall any complete OU movesets by typing alone, barring Skarmory and possibly Raikou), which may or may not run contrary to the desired stat build, although I think that’s only a minor issue unless we give the CAP garbage attacking stats.

Okay, I'll bite.

I'd like to suggest Steel / Fairy as the typing for our CAP.

My thought process here was to pick a typing which could set up on a large number of Pokemon, has one pretty spammable STAB which is resisted by defensive Pokemon which, preferrably, can’t do too much back to it, enabling a defensive set to set up on certain defensive Pokemon which the offensive set can’t break past. I also wanted its main STAB to pair up well with certain attacking types in terms of offensive coverage so that the offensive set could sweep through a good portion of the metagame.

Which is why I though of Steel/Fairy. Fairy is a pretty spammable STAB, it has no immunities, and the most common resistances are Steel-types and-Poison types, neither of which can do too much to a defensive set, especially if we give it Taunt, which stops Skarmory and Empoleon from phazing it, Ferrothorn and MVenu from Leech Seeding it, and Amoonguss from putting it to sleep. That being said, Fire types are pretty much universal answers to defensive sets. However, they can easily fall to an offensive set if we give it EdgeQuake coverage to hit Talonflame, Heatran, the Zards, Victini and Volcarona. On the flipside, EdgeQuake coverage is not enough to hit most of the passive Steel types which would fall prey to a bulky set.
Of course, something like Taunt on an offensive set is still a possibility, however we can easily make it so that it loses important coverage : Rock coverage is needed to break past Talonflame and YZard, while Ground/Fighting coverage is a must for Heatran, Excadrill, Magnezone, Tentacruel and Toxicroak. It’s even harder to fit both Taunt and recovery move, which prevents defensive Pokemon from stalling you out but only leaves you with Fairy coverage which would fit much better on a defensive set.
Finally, it's extremely Priority resistant, resisting the 2 most relevant priority moves in OU, Talonflame's Brave Bird and Bisharp's Sucker Punch, while not being weak to any other priority move. This is good news for the DD set, but not so much for the CM set, which falls to Flare Blitz and will probably take a lot of damage from Iron Head too.

So overral, I think this typing would fit our CAP very nicely.

Imanalt said:

So to me these questions er, aren't exactly what we need, so I'm just going to outline what I think we need in a typing, and hopefully address them indirectly?

(these are ordered from most to least important)

1) A type with no 4x weaknesses
For a bulky cmer, which is what our cm set should be ideally, a 4x weakness is very crippling, as the entire point of the mon is basically getting to a point where you wall their entire team and then cm up until you can also kill their entire team. Its really hard to get to that state when you have a 4x weakness, because it just takes too much bulk/too many boosts to be able to take 4x hits.

2) A type that does decently against priority
If our dd set is going to be a significant threat against offense, it shouldn't just die to much priority. This doesn't mean we need a type that resists every single priority by any stretch of the imagination, but at the least a flying resist would be helpful, and I'd definitely like to see us not weak to more than at most one common priority move.

3) A STAB that is relatively spammable
This is especially important against the defensive pokemon of the tier, enabling cm to run a monoattacking set if that is the direction we choose to take. I worry less about the dd set in this regard, because dd will presumably have moveslots to run more coverage than cm, and so we can patch a decent stab with coverage later.

4) A type that gives us natural resistance to a damaging status
All bulky cm mons need some way to avoid losing to any mon with toxic/will-o-wisp. This can be done in a wide variety of ways, either by a combination of type + immunity/water veil, magic bounce, magic guard, restalk, etc. I would like to see us keep our options as open as possible in this stage for how we decide to combat status on the cm set.

5) A type that helps dd set up
This is something that is useful, but given its pretty much a given we will have at least decent bulk and defensive type I don't think this is a huge priority. DD will be able to find set up opportunities, especially by bluffing cm.

So i hope this at least indirectly addresses the questions...

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I was thinking a lot of these ideas before I even read your post and came down to Poison / Dark. Dark is a solid offensive typing in the current metagame, and Poison covers it weaknesses both offensively and defensively by providing an immunity to Toxic, as well as being able to cover Fairies offensively if desired. You do not have a Flying resist, but you are neutral to all forms of priority (except two that you resist) and have a good STAB combo that is resisted by only Bisharp, Klefki, and the CAP itself, the first two of which are worn down relatively easily (EDIT: Also Cobalion, Toxicroak, Tyranitar, and Lucario, all of which are easy to wear down as well). Defensively, Dark / Poison has only one weakness in Ground, and while Ground is a common typing and is good defensively, most Ground-types get worn down easily or can be pressured, exploited, or forced out by common Pokemon in OU.

Happy 2000 Unun :D

First off, I think Imanalt's list is very important, and say that all of his points should be kept in mind as typings are suggested.

But now, typing. There's a definite large amount of good types we can choose, but I think the most important ones are one with not many weaknesses/key resists (to give setup opportunities), and good, spammable STABs. Achieving both with a mono type is obviously pretty preposterous, but let's focus on the best of both of 'em.

I suggest:

Water/Electric (sorry Krillowatt)

Electric gives defensive benefits, with a Brave Bird resistance, a Thunder Wave immunity for Dragon Dance to sweep easier, and a single weakness (granted, Ground's pretty important of a weakness, seeing Landorus is always a threat and how common EQ is, but still). The main bad thing, however (besides bad physical stabs but we can Fusion Bolt so eh), is the not very spammable stab. You're shut down by Ground types and walled to death by Grass types and fellow Electric types, so you won't be plowing through teams very easily with it, even with some CM boosts. Meanwhile, Water helps offensively, giving strong moves both on the physical (woot Waterfall) and especially Special (Bulky CM Scald FTW) to beat the grounds and also lets you defeat bulky Will-O-Wisping Fire types with ease. You also get some more healthy resistances to setup on, like the common Ice and Fire moves you find in nearly every team of the meta. Overall, this is meant to be a bit more of a defensive typing, to give good setup opportunities (through forcing switches with DD and being hard to kill while setting up CM) and more or less just give you the first push down the road over actually help you ride the road, so it prioritizes setting up over actually sweeping, to answer Question 2.

Some of the typing's downsides include Ground types that outspeed it (from IRC discussion I've gathered an 80 something base speed is a pretty nice standard to work with), being walled by Grass types (and some Dragons) like Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur for daaaaays and getting Leech Seeded by them, and, perhaps most important, not the best offensive typing ever to accomplish our goals. While Water and Electric are nice STABs put together, only about half, or even a third of the walls are weak to them, and the majority can still tank those pretty well (a bigger problem for CM due to not having room for coverage). I think it'd be a solid choice if we go for a more defensive setup.

In addition to revenge killers, we should also not get set up on by other set-up sweepers. It doesn't matter if we get off our Dragon Dance if Charizard X is Dragon Dancing beside us. Calm Minding against Slowbro's Calm Mind, just to get Psyshocked is also counter-productive.

Add to this that we want to force out priority users, this leads us to the conclusion that CAPs typing must be conducive to the use of at least one priority move. That way, priority users will feel threatened by the presence of our priority countering them, and other set-up sweepers get punished for trying to use CAP as set up bait.

If we look at our examples of past mixed set-up users, this is consistent among them. Lucario and Infernape both had a plethora of priority moves to choose from. This is pretty reasonable when it comes down to things. Even Shell Smash users tend towards priority when they have access to it, and that's basically Dragon Dance but stronger on many of the Shell Smash users. Basically, when you get down to brass tacks, at least the Dragon Dance set should be able to viably use priority.

Thus, here is my proposition as far as typing goes.

Ghost/Fairy
2x Weakness: Ghost, Steel
Immunities: Normal, Fighting, Dragon
4x Resistances: Bug

Notable STAB: Shadow Sneak, Shadow Claw, Shadow Ball, Draining Kiss, Moonblast, Play Rough

Weak to STABs: Altaria-M, Breloom, CAP20, Celebi, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, Gallade-M, Garchomp, Gardevoir-M, Gengar, Gothitelle, Gyarados-M, Jirachi, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, Latias, Latios, Lopunny-M, Mandibuzz, Metagross-M, Mew, Sableye-M, Slowbro, Slowbro-M, Starmie, Tyranitar, Tyranitar-M

Neutral to STABs: Every other Pokemon in the game

Offensive typing: Simply put, it's berserk. Every pokemon in the game except Pyroar takes at least neutral damage from its STAB, so nothing is going to climb out of the lower tiers to attempt to wall it. Ghost is actually surprisingly spamable as Aegislash was quick to teach us, having only Normal types (Chansey and Lopunny alone) and Dark types (which die to Fairy) to worry about. It actually hits more Pokemon super effectively than any other proposed typing, and more of them are actually relevant. Wrecking Slowbro in the rear is something pretty unique to this typing as far as viable typings are concerned.

Defensive typing: The Steel weakness is really its only relevant weakness. Now that's a pretty relevant weakness, make no mistake, and Bullet Punch is a relevant move. However, of the pokemon that can viably hit it with Steel moves, Metagross would die to the Dragon Dance set thanks to his weakness to Ghost and our predetermined tendency to bulk, and Scizor and Bisharp would die to the Calm Mind set thanks to their inability to take Special Attacks and their wonky Speed tier. We would need something to answer Excadrill, but he doesn't have Bullet Punch, which is what we're concerned about, since that's the only thing that would get it past Dragon Dance variants.

Concerning non-Steel types, not taking super effective hits from any of Lando's coverage moves is insane, and almost enough of a perk to make this thing viable strictly off that. Besides that, not instantly dying to the pokemon that completely wrecks our Dragon Dances and sweeps our Clam Minds is pretty vital to the project succeeding anyway. Ghost coverage is virtually non-existent, so we never have to worry about that weakness. Three imminuties gives us plenty of set-up space. We don't have that many resistances, but neither do a vast majority of defensive pokemon. The most important thing when being defensive is to not die to the pokemon that have super effective coverage on you, and this happens to fit the bill.

;tldr This typing allows it to smash all the Steel types we should hypotheticaly be weak to, and has no hard counters in this metagame, or any hypothetical metagame that could arise short of Aegislash getting removed from Uber. It's coverage is insane and Ghost is highly spammable. It's Dragon Dance and Calm Mind set would have vastly different checks. It also doesn't auto-lose to Landorus-T, which every other proposed typing does. It also auto-wins against Mega-Slowbro, which very few of our proposals can do.

I certainly think the Fairy typing is almost a must have for this CAP. It's an incredibly spammable typing with some great resistances, which should make CM boosting a lot easier. Of course fairy alone is walled by every single steel in OU, which is why the secondary typing should nicely complement fairy in order to be able to deal with a number of these.

So I'm throwing support behind Electric/Fairy for the reasons given in Korski's post. Additionally, it would have zero competition on the DD front. In terms of CM Clefable is the only OU fairy that uses CM regularly. You could argue Sylveon but that set is outclassed by specs.

Speaking of competition, there is already an overabundance of viable water types in the OU tier, and of which about 50% of them utilise either DD or CM. If we choose a water typing we would have to be aware of the fact that it could easily end up being outclassed by Mega-Gyarados and Mega-Slowbro or even Suicune. Pretty much the only thing our CAP would have going for it would be unpredictability. Because of the high possibility of CAP being outclassed I think a water typing would be the wrong path to choose.

I was originally considering Steel/Fairy myself, and I still think it may be the best typing for what it brings to the table defensively. But the issue I ran into is one that seems to be present in Albacore's post: the typing needs a lot of support in the movepool department in order for the DD set to function. The reason I like Fairy/Electric more is because CAP can scare a LOT of things out with STABs alone, while retaining the defensive ability to set up on many Pokemon that try to stay in and just go for damage. I really want to focus on the former since it's something that Steel/Fairy is lacking in. Most setup sweepers don't get their boosts as the opponent is attacking. It is admittedly more common among bulky sweepers, but for the most part the opponent either switches out because the mon who's currently in is setup fodder, or they switch out because their win condition can get killed if it stays in. Now whether or not your opponent has setup fodder in is to some extent independent of CAP's typing, but whether or not CAP can OHKO with no boosts depends on having super effective hits on a lot of OU. This is something Electric/Fairy brings to the table, with the ability to wreck flying, water, dragon, fighting, and dark types even without a boost.

A secondary reason I think Fairy is worth considering in it's own right is flexibility in the special movepool thanks to Draining Kiss. While I'm not sure if we'll want to use it or not (Draining Kiss is far from a standard STAB option after all), having STAB recovery as an option could potentially allow us to tailor the CM set to match the checks and counters list. For example, if we didn't want the DD set getting access to reliable recovery, or if our CM set needs to use coverage moves to beat all of the things we want it to, STAB Draining Kiss could potentially stand in as a pseudo-recovery move exclusive to the CM set. I don't mean to poll jump at all here, and am not advocating one way or the other on this move. I'm just saying having Fairy STAB might make things easier down the road.

So here's a cool little thing that Korski HeaLnDeaL Cretacerus DetroitLolcat nyttyn Albacore and I came up with (probably someone else that I forgot. Don't worry we still love you ).

We spent a lot of time discussing typings on IRC and the pros and cons of everything, so I created a PiratePad where we could list out their pros, cons, and potential STAB / coverage moves is chosen.









For reference, Water, Fairy, Steel, and Electric came up a lot.

EDIT: Please note that these were heavily discussed over IRC with multiple people and not something I came up with on my own.

Ununhexium said:

So here's a cool little thing that Korski HeaLnDeaL Cretacerus DetroitLolcat nyttyn Albacore and I came up with (probably someone else that I forgot. Don't worry we still love you ).

We spent a lot of time discussing typings on IRC and the pros and cons of everything, so I created a PiratePad where we could list out their pros, cons, and potential STAB / coverage moves is chosen.

Water / Steel

-------------------------------Water / Steel-------------------------------------------------

Pros

Toxic immunity
Spammable mono attacking move (Scald, burn chance is a huge plus for CM)
Lots of resistances aid in setting up and resisting priority (including stuff like Brave Bird, Bullet Punch,Fake Out, and Aqua Jet)
Hits its most common weakness, Ground, SE, helps DD defeat CM checks
Access to good priority moves (Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet) (is this relevant though?)
Resistance to Fairy sets it apart from the otherwise similar DD Gyarados (and maybe CM Keldeo)
Talonflame and Landorus can't switch in


Cons
Weakness to Ground, though STAB users can't switch in (with the possible exception of Garchomp)
Weak to Fighting (Breloom / Conk, Keldeo)
Weak to Electric, though specially offensive biase gives CM some breathing room
STABs are resisted by Water-types, can't do shit to Keldeo / Starmie / Rotom-W
Steel STAB questionable
Relatively weak dual STABs on the physical side
No Para immunity w/o ability
Issues dealing with Ferrothorn, Rotom-W

Notable Potential STABs: Aqua Jet, Water Shuriken, Scald!, Waterfall, Razor Shell, Aqua Tail, Hydro Pump, Meteor Mash, Iron Head, Gear Grind, Bullet Punch, Flash Cannon, Crab Hammer?

Potential Coverage Types: Grass, Electric, Flying, Ice, Fire, Fighting

Water / Poison

-------------------------------------Water / Poison---------------------------------------------

Pros

Toxic Immunuty
Resistance to Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, and Mach Punch
No weaknesses to any priority (neutral to Brave Bird, Fake Out, Sucker Punch)
Spammable Water STAB on both sides of spectrum - Scald is Bae
Hits its most common weakness, Ground, SE
Resistance to Fairy sets it apart from otherwise similar DD Gyarados
Talonflame, Landorus, and Gardevoir can't safely switch in
STAB only resisted by Ferrothorn in OU
Access to Black Sludge for defensive purposes

Cons
Poison STAB is questionable (especially on the physical side) poison jab meh but not bad. Still hits dem fairies
Gunk Shot is a 120 Power 80 Accuracy STAB move. Poison has a great Physical attacking move. Doesn't add much coverage though
Weak to Ground, though STAB users can't switch in (with the possible exception of Garchomp)
No Brave Bird resistance (but still not a weakness thank gawd)
Weak to Psychic attacks from Slowbro / Starmie / Mega Gardevoir Though Poison is actually super effective on Gardevoir im aware but it cant switch in (seems like DD can beat Gardevoir, but CM may not due to Psyshock. However, this might actually be in align with the concept to some degree). well its also a steel type and should have good physical bulk so... no this water / psn, not steel
Mach Punch resistance is not not as useful as BB resistance of Steel/WaterBut it's not WEAK to BB, like Steel/Water is weak to Mach Punch.
No para immunity without ability
Ferrothorn walls its STABs

Notable Potential STABs: Aqua Jet, Water Shuriken, Scald, Waterfall, Razor Shell, Aqua Tail, Crab Hammer?, Hydro Pump, Poison Jab, Gunk Shot, Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave, Acid Spray?

Potential Coverage Types: Fire, Fighting, Ground

Electric / Fairy

-----------------------------------------Electric / Fairy-----------------------------------------------

Pros
Resistance to Brave Bird, Mach Punch, U-turn, Volt Switch, Draco Meteor, and Sucker Punch
No weaknesses to any priority (neutral to Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, Fake Out, and Ice Shard)
Fairy STAB deals with the otherwise problematic Sableye
Fairy is a good spammable STAB
Para Immunity
2 useful STABs for both boosting sets - good SE coverage in general
Good typing matchup vs. physical walls/tanks


Cons
Lando-T bait - Requires specific coverage/ability to deal with Landorus
Steel types have both the offensive and defensive advantage against the CM set lacking HP-Fire
No Toxic immunity w/o ability
Clefable, Excadrill, and Ferrothorn sit on its face

Notable Potential STABs: Thunderbolt, Thunder, Parabolic Charge?, Wild Charge, Volt Tackle, Fusion Bolt?, Moonblast, Play Rough, Draining Kiss

Potential Coverage Types: Fire, Ice

Fairy / Ghost

---------------------------------------------Fairy/Ghost-------------------------------------------

Pros:
Perfect neutral coverage
A greater number of mons hit super effectively than the Electric counterpart
Immunity to Mach Punch I guess
One of very few pokemon on the list to have neutral STAB on Ferrothorn

Cons:
Bullet Punch weakness
Ghost typing more of a generally good typing, little specific benefits for the concept
Clefable sits on its face

Notable Potential STABs: Shadow Sneak, Shadow Claw, Shadow Ball, Moonblast, Play Rough, Draining Kiss

Potential Coverage types: None, really. I guess it could stand to get a Ground or Fire move, but it's coverage is built not to need it

Steel / Fairy

---------------------------------------------Steel/Fairy-------------------------------------------

Pros:
Very good defensive typing
Fairy STAB deals with the otherwise problematic Sableye
Fairy is a good spammable STAB
Resists almost every priority move, especially Brave Bird
Poison immunity
Knock Off resistance

Cons:
Weak to Ground, nothing to hit Ground SE --> Checked by Landorus-T
Heatran very problematic offensively and defensively (For CM)
Steel STAB adds little to offensive coverage on DD
Water/Steel has same benefits but lesser Cons
Ferrothorn resists its STAB, along with every other Steel type (CM has taunt (polljumping), DD coverage though)

Notable Potential STABS: Bullet Punch, Gear Grind, Iron Head, Meteor Mash, Flash Cannon, Moonblast, Play Rough, Draining Kiss

Potential Coverage Types: Fire, Fighting, Ground

Water / Electric

---------------------------------------------Water/Electric-------------------------------------------

Pros:
Resists Brave Bird and Bullet Punch
Spammable STAB in Scald
Paralysis immunity
Only 1 common weakness
Water STAB deterres Ground type checks from switching in (especially Landorus)
Doesn't care about Talonflame

Cons:
Ground weakness
No Poison (or Burn) Immunity
Both STABs resisted by Dragon type

Notable Potention STABs: Scald, Waterfall, Aqua Tail, Discharge, Fusion Bolt?, (Aqua Jet)

Potential Coverage Types: Ice, Fairy

Poison / Dark

---------------------------------------------Poison/Dark-------------------------------------------

Pros:
Toxic Immunity
Single weakness, important for CM
Resists Shadow Sneak (lawl uncommon) and Sucker Punch
(Potential) Access to Knock Off is always good
Dark as spammable STAB for CM sets
Neutral STAB against Ferrothorn
Access to Black Sludge for defensive purposes

Cons:
the single weakness is very common and physical, problematic for CM
Doesn't Resist Brave Bird (but at least not weak to it) or other common priority
No Para immunity w/o ability
Poison STAB doesn't add much coverage, needs coverage to deal with Landorus
Dark lacks strong BP attacks, meaning DD sets running Dark STAB + 2 Coverage will somewhat lack Power

Notable Potential STABS: Knock Off, Crunch, Dark Pulse,Sucker Punch, Night Daze?, Poison Jab, Gunk Shot, Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave, Acid Spray?

Potential Coverage Moves: Water, Fighting

For reference, Water, Fairy, Steel, and Electric came up a lot.

EDIT: Please note that these were heavily discussed over IRC with multiple people and not something I came up with on my own.

Click to expand...

List Volt Tackle under Notable Stab moves for electric please

So, a lot of my basic opinions were in part summarized into Ununhexium's post, accompanied side by side with some good observations by others than were on IRC this afternoon. For now, I want to elaborate on my own thoughts and throw my support behind a few different typings in particular.

Toebag said:

Speaking of competition, there is already an overabundance of viable water types in the OU tier, and of which about 50% of them utilise either DD or CM. If we choose a water typing we would have to be aware of the fact that it could easily end up being outclassed by Mega-Gyarados and Mega-Slowbro or even Suicune. Pretty much the only thing our CAP would have going for it would be unpredictability. Because of the high possibility of CAP being outclassed I think a water typing would be the wrong path to choose.

Click to expand...

It is true that a fair amount of water types are known for their boosting moves. However, rather than simply saying that these other Water types provide too much competition... maybe water is the way to go simply because it has a solid record of good boosters. I completely agree that another pure water type like Suicune or Water/Dark like Mega Gyarados is not the way to go. However, I think we might be losing out on a few really solid typings if we disregard water all together. After all, water as a type is commonly attributed with two very good features that I think are quite helpful for our CAP. For one, it's a great defensive typing that allows for smoother-than-average set up. And secondly, it has access to good moves on both the special and physical sides of the spectrum. Scald is of major importance to this, and I think it's hard to argue that Scald wouldn't be a good move on our Calm Mind set.

So, if we can't go with the exact typing blueprints that match Suicune or Slowbro or Gyarados, but if we still want some of the benefits that the Water type has to offer, then we have a few options. The key here is to differentiate ourselves from other DDance/Calm Mind Water types, and to preferably resist as much priority as possible to ease in setting up. This leaves me to believe that the following are good options:
Water / Poison is one of the only typings that isn't weak to any form of priority and is simultaneously immune to poison. The success of the Calm Mind set, I think, really depends on not taking toxic damage so I think this is a huge feat. While Water / Poison may leave our CAP weak to prominent Ground and Psychic users such as Landorus and Mega Gardevoir, at least they can't directly switch in because they fear our STABs. Compared to Water / Steel, it's basically just a trade of losing a Brave Bird resistance in favor for a Mach Punch / Fighting move resistance.

Water / Steel is a pretty good defensive typing and offers a toxic immunity, too. Steel is a slightly worse offensive typing than Poison, and as a result this typing has a poorer match up against many other Water types. However, being resistant to Brave Bird is huge. Of the water types mentioned here, this one does the best against the Lati twins.

Water / Electric was something that wasn't too high on my radar, but DLC brought up some good points to me. Basically it trades a toxic immunity for a paralysis immunity (though losing that toxic immunity is less than desirable). It's not weak to any form of priority and resists brave bird to boot, something that the two types above cannot claim. And though it may not hit Dragons very well, with the appropriate coverage this can be overcome.

An unfortunate characteristic of all of Poison, Steel, and Electric is that we'd be weak to ground, which is definitely not the best thing to be weak to due to its prominence. However, at the very least having Water STAB means we have some sort of potential to deal with ground types.

Steel / Fairy is a decent non-water typing at this stage. It resists a ton of priority moves, and among them Brave Bird is a huge one. On the flip side though, our STABs both are not very effective against Talonflame, which could be a notable deterrent. However, being immune to toxic is huge as well. Electric / Fairy has the added benefit of being able to threaten Talonflame, at the cost of that nice toxic immunity. Overall though, I think the benefits list (as mentioned by Korski) for Electric / Fairy is pretty impressive, and so it's probably my favorite non-water type at this point and time.

We definitely do not have a catch-all perfect typing to choose. We can "piggy back" off of the established water type and tweak it to make significant changes, or we can plow through to unexplored territory and come up with some new solutions. At this point and time, it seems as if it might end up pitting Water and Fairy against each other, though that is far from the intention (Water / Fairy may seem as an appealing compromise, as it isn't weak to priority and resists a fair bit of it-- however, it has the double-stacked hindrance of not being immune to status AND not resisting Brave Bird). Personally I'm slightly inclined to lean towards the Water side. Any fears of creating a copy-cat of a previous Water booster should be dissuaded at this point as well-- no current OU water type has sets for both DDance and Calm Mind like we are trying to do here. We are not trying to make a better DDancer than Gyarados. We are not trying to make a better Calm Minder than Mega Slowbro or Crocune of days past. We want both moves to have potential, and even though this hasn't happened yet on a single Water Pokemon (which is good because it gives us a niche), the precedents for good boosting Water types is something that is hard to ignore.

I like Electric/Fairy, not only is it able to resist most priority moves (a requirement for a good boost sweeper) but is also immune to paralysis. Its main check would be Ground (especially Excadrill) but what we need is a CAP that's strong but not invincible.

My support goes to Electric / Fairy for most of the reasons already cited in this thread. I really think in order to have the most effective sweeper, paralysis immunity is *much* more important than Toxic or Burn immunity. Not only does paralysis kill the speed necessary for any sweep, it can also cost turns a Pokemon could use to Calm Mind or Dragon Dance. That it also reduces the threat of the two strongest priority moves in OU, Gale Wings Brave Bird and Sucker Punch is another great selling point.

And on the subject of status, there are certainly partner abilities that would play well off of the attraction of using Toxic or Burn on the bulky sets to aid the DD set. For that matter a bulky set might conceivably run Restalk anyway, and not losing a Rest turn to paralysis or losing because CAP is outsped is also a huge plus. Bottom line paralysis is the greatest enemy of sweeping because unlike Burn or Toxic which can put a sweeper on a timer, most paralyzed sweepers cease to be sweepers from that moment on.

My only note on Water-typing is that there is already a Water-type CM sweeper in Keldeo. Yes, Keldeo mostly uses CM because it doesn't have something like Nasty Plot, but teams are already prepared for "Water type CM user."

The question "What do we want our CAP to set up on" can be broken down into "What do we want our CAP to Dragon Dance on" and "What do we want our CAP to Calm Mind on".

It's easiest to Dragon Dance against Pokemon that have limited coverage or offensive ability, especially if those Pokemon don't have U-Turn or Volt Switch. Pokemon like bulky Mega Scizor, non-Taunt Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Ferrothorn do not have the tools to prevent an opponent from setting up if we resist their status moves. It's also important for a Dragon Dancer not to be vulnerable to priority, especially since we're not likely to be OHKOing opposing priority users with only a Dragon Dance boost. The two most important types for a Dragon Dancer to handle are Flying and Steel, although we can certainly get by with a neutrality to both. The best Dragon Dancers in OU are Mega Altaria, Mega Charizard X, and both Gyarados formes. Note that none are weak to Flying, all of them can take a Bullet Punch if necessary, and either have great dual STABs or great coverage options. They also all have a way to beat Steels.

A Calm Minder sets up in one of two ways. It either uses its inherent Physical bulk to set up against a physical pivot that can't touch it, or it Calm Minds against a Special attacker slower than it that can't touch it at +1. The three biggest Calm Mind users in OU right now are Mega Slowbro, Keldeo, and Mega Sableye. All three of those Pokemon have great Defense and can beat Physical OU pivots like Landorus-Therian, Gliscor, and Ferrothorn 1v1. Nothing is immune to their STABs if they mono-attack (with the rare example of Mega Sableye). They don't get bogged down by Ferrothorn's Leech Seed, can usually kill Toxic users before succumbing to status, and are primarily weak to Special attackers. Furthermore, none of them have 4x weaknesses.

Whatever type we go with, it should not be weak to Flying or Steel no matter what. It should also not be weak to Ground, Rock, or Fighting, but can be as long as it can punish those types from switching in. It doesn't necessarily need good dual-STABs, but would like them. It absolutely cannot have a 4x weakness. For those reasons, Water/Poison is my favorite choice so far. Water/Electric isn't bad either.

Water/Poison is neutral to Brave Bird and Acrobatics, and a neutrality is fine since CAP20 is likely to be Physically bulky to sustain Calm Mind. It can take Bullet Punch, and has great two-move coverage that really only has problems with Ferrothorn. Gunk Shot is one of the best STAB moves in the game, and moves like Waterfall or Crabhammer will complement it greatly. On the Calm Mind side, Water/Poison gets STAB Scald, which lets it defeat walls in the long run. It also lets CAP20 win 1v1 vs. Ferrothorn. While CM Water/Poison can't beat bulky Grounds 1v1, it can at least prevent them from switching in.

I'm very wary of an Electric/Fairy CAP because it will have very limited opportunities to defeat bulky Grounds. That's extremely off-putting for a Calm Mind sweeper.

I would like to throw on some support behind the Poison/Dark option Alfalfa mentioned.

This typing came to my mind because of its only Ground weakness that, while undesirable, it's only a x2 weakness and it's pretty easy to spot when it's coming at you. CAP20 will likely be quite bulky from the physical side while CM might help take a stray Earth Power, a move who seldom have STAB in OU. Poison/Dark is a typing with a lot of neutralities, and only 3 resistances to Poison, Dark, and Ghost, and it strikes me as a good catch-all type when coupled with a decent amount of bulk. Speaking of priority, Poison/Dark isn't weak to any form of priority, but it isn't resistant to any either (except Shadow Sneak, but no one uses that) so it might be a good compromise.

Another aspect of this typing I think fits the concept is the relatively low base power of the STAB moves CAP20 will have, With the exception of Gunk Shot, both special and physical Poison and Dark moves don't have very high base power, furthering the need for CAP20 to set up.The mediocre supereffective coverage of those 2 types adds to that, and will most likely need a coverage move.

Deck Knight said:

My support goes to Electric / Fairy for most of the reasons already cited in this thread. I really think in order to have the most effective sweeper, paralysis immunity is *much* more important than Toxic or Burn immunity. Not only does paralysis kill the speed necessary for any sweep, it can also cost turns a Pokemon could use to Calm Mind or Dragon Dance. That it also reduces the threat of the two strongest priority moves in OU, Gale Wings Brave Bird and Sucker Punch is another great selling point.

And on the subject of status, there are certainly partner abilities that would play well off of the attraction of using Toxic or Burn on the bulky sets to aid the DD set. For that matter a bulky set might conceivably run Restalk anyway, and not losing a Rest turn to paralysis or losing because CAP is outsped is also a huge plus. Bottom line paralysis is the greatest enemy of sweeping because unlike Burn or Toxic which can put a sweeper on a timer, most paralyzed sweepers cease to be sweepers from that moment on.

Click to expand...

I'm gonna have to disagree with this. The horrors of paralysis that you speak of only apply to the DD set, whereas toxic has a similar effect on the CM set. I would even argue that paralysis immunity is less important simply because once you get a DD boost up, the only things that have a shot in hell of paralyzing us are prankster users.

Too busy rn to get massively involved in this discussion, but I think Water/Steel is the way to go.

The typing overall needs to be both good and solid, not double-edged. When trying to perform two diverse roles like this CAP, you need some solid baseline. Water/Steel gives nice Water, Psychic, Dragon, Rock, Fairy, Bug, Ice, and Steel resistances. All in all, good and solid.

More specifically, CM sets get a nice spammable move in Scald and is only weak to one common STAB special attacking type, Electric. Landorus-I is also a problem, but at least there are no common Fighting types that use a special Fighting move. It's considerably easier to live unSTABed Focus Blasts than it first appears. Finally, it gives a Toxic immunity, which is rather handy.

As for DD, my benchmark is that I think it should be able to beat Scarf Landorus-T but not Scarf Keldeo. Water/Steel does that incredibly admirably. Moreover, its Steel typing can be used to break even Unaware Clefable and provides a resistance to the most common form of priority revenging, Brave Bird.

Quite frankly, I think any other combination is headed down the wrong path. The CAP needs a spammable special STAB and Scald fits the bill like no other. Meanwhile, Steel accomplishes both the Talonflame and Clefable repelling together, both highly desirable traits for the DD set. Other pairings lack either one or the other of these types of traits and this imo will inevitably lead to one set vastly outshining the other.

My only real objection to Water/Poison is that two of its weaknesses are particularly bad for this concept, Ground and Psychic. The Psychic weakness is particularly acute because Mega Slowbro resists Water STAB, and its STAB Psyshock means that it will win a CM war. Gardevoir also uses Psyshock, and of course Latios, Latias and sometimes Gothitelle (~27%) does. That's a fair few fairly fast (Reg Garde not so much, Mega Garde kind of, it won't be switching in but we can't set up on it. Goth runs Scarftrick >75% of the time) Pokemon that don't care about CM's SpD boost. The DD Set relies on Poison STAB to take care of most of these Pokemon (forget beating MegaBro), and, well... Gunk Shot has the same Acc as Stone Miss.

Physically of course you have Landorus and Garchomp (neutral to Water) to worry about. It also just seems to me to lack offensively - Fire, Rock, Ground, Grass (Chesnaught/Breloom), and Fairy SE coverage is sufficient I suppose.

These weaknesses can certainly be worked around, don't get me wrong, it just seems to be focused on the wrong points for this particular combination of stat boosters. Otherwise my earlier criticism of "Water-type CM user" also holds for "Water-type DD user" in Gyarados. If we go with a Water typing, we need to consider "why should I use this over either CM Keldeo or DD Gyarados - does the surprise factor outweigh those sets if they are more reliable specific stat-boosters?"